The Role Of Women In The Church

[philosophette]

First of all, I am not sure if this is the correct forum for this within PhatMass, but I just *know* this going to have trads and libs throwing arguments left and right over what I say. Perhaps this is why I put it here, but I do not want it to turn into a debate.

I would specifically like to address this to[b] cmotherofpearl [/b][u]because she seems be one of the few people here whom I feel does not get all bend out of shape and spout quotes from documents and tradition every single time someone mentions ANYTHING related to women without actually considering the women they are talking about. I'd love to hear other people's opinions as well, but I already know what the Traditional Latin Rite viewpoint is, so please, stay out of this discussion. I need some space.

I have been a member of PhatMass for quite a while now. I do some lurking, and only post about 1/4 of the time I feel like posting simply because I get so blooming frustrated whenever I log on an see yet ANOTHER conversation about the "place" aka role of women in the Church.

I might as well lay down my major issues so that I can be done with this post.

1) I am SICK SICK SICK of hearing about how women should/must/have to/are offending God and the angels of they do not/are recommended to wear chapel veils in church.
--- Some women feel a call to do this, some women do not. It is not the norm anymore. I do not do it because most of the women who do do it around me are very "holier than thou" about it and it makes me feel ostracized. I respect anyone who does it for devotional reasons, but I think there is a fine line between devotion and showmanship and I have seem far more showmanship than devotion where I live.
I also notice that it is mostly MEN who devote SO MUCH time to talking about it. Geesh. If only they were SO INTERESTED in compassionating us and understanding what our monthly annoyance entails.

2) I feel like there is a spirit of misogyny around here, especially among the more traditionally leaning Catholics. I doubt that it is intention, but it still clouds the discussions. The whole discussion about altar girls in the Creepy Aliens board was more annoying than anything else I have read. The debate was not even kind towards females. It felt a lot like "ew, ew, ew... get them away! They are going to creep the boys out!" rather than something more charitable.
FOR THE LOVE OF MARY people, if you are going to debate SO MUCH about the how women are not to do this or that PLEASE have a few decent conversations about what women CAN DO in the liturgy. What can we do? Is us reading also offensive? I am sure a number of you would say so. How about bringing up the gifts? How about doing the collection? How about ANYTHING.
I am not a mother, I am not a wife, I am not a nun. I do not have those roles in the Church at this time... I am a single woman and I go to church, I participate in the liturgy and I feel very ALONE. I feel like there are few places for me in the Church outside of Mothering someone or cleaning the Church or cooking... THERE has to be more. I did some cantoring at one point and several people had the NERVE to come up to me and tell me that the place of women in the Church is to cook the after Mass meal, not to lead the singing. It hurt even worse because the men who cantor make it a competition and are not nice to one another... and I had spent a month preparing without their support.
I look back at the whole "Alter Girls" discussion and its tag line is "step away from the alter". Excuse me?[b] This is the mindset of the future leaders of the Church?[/b] I love reverence in the Mass, but it is like the involvement of the woman seems to destroy that in their minds. Is not that flesh that the priests hold of a WOMAN. Was not the first Altar of Christ a WOMAN, was not his first throne a WOMAN, was not his first friend a WOMAN, his first disciple a WOMAN, were not the ones who were faithful to him in his passion WOMEN.
People of this mindset which so bothers me also seem to have a deep devotion to Mary, but what kind of Mary do they love? She was WOMAN, she was instrumental in our salvation, she said yes to God when most men would not even have the courage to do so. She had breasts, a womb, long hair, a feminine features and emotions - she was the best of each and every woman we know --- not some kind of uber woman who was/is beyond any other womanly trait we can think of. If she is I do not think I want her for my model then, for that will just set me up for discouragement and failure.
One of the posts says this:
[quote] QUOTE
1 Corinthians 14:34
"Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53014.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53014.htm[/url]
Women are commanded to keep silent and not to have authority of teaching in the Church, this command of Saint Paul the Apostle is in reflecting the Jewish Temple System that the Catholic Church proceeds to being the Universal Religion of God. [/quote]

Ouch. That is all I can say. Where is the kindness and sensitivity to women in these responses? It is so harsh. So black and white.

Well, I don't want to be silent. I want to speak, and teach, and love, and use all of my gifts, but as time goes on and I keep being mistreated by men in the Church and put down simply because God made me female I really really wonder if the Catholic religion is really the true faith. How could God, who made men and women both, desire that we be treated like this?

Now do not take me as some kind of liberal, left wing feminist. I am Catholic feminist. I do not want a female priesthood or anything like that. What I want is for YOU MEN to stop talking to us like we are either idiots, going to take over the Church, want to destroy the Church, want to take away all of your little roles from you and never give them back... talk to us as if you are the sole authority on EVERYTHING CATHOLIC even though you are lay men and not priests or bishops... you are not greater than we are just because you are a man or have read more books than we have time to because we are busy serving and doing your laundry, cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the children.

Do you know why we are silent, why we do not have time to do all that you do? It is because we are fulfilling the love of Christ in the lives of others. You may have the staff, but we have the heart and the heart is what draws people to Christ.

So, PLEASE people, lets have a conversation about what women CAN DO in the Church and the liturgy... because I am VERY frustrated.

Thank you.

Could one of the Mods please fix the poll? I have never made one before and it did not work correctly.

Thanks! :-)

[XIX]

There is a fine line between being Catholic and being a neocon. I have found recently that some Phatmassers flirt with crossing this line. Even if they are in full communion with the Church.

[philosophette]

[quote name='XIX' post='1194479' date='Feb 14 2007, 12:21 AM']
There is a fine line between being Catholic and being a neocon. I have found recently that some Phatmassers flirt with crossing this line. Even if they are in full communion with the Church.
[/quote]

If by Catholic you mean what Christ intended and if by neocon you mean a perversion/warped idea of that I would most definitely agree with you.

Where is the balance?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='XIX' post='1194479' date='Feb 14 2007, 12:21 AM']
There is a fine line between being Catholic and being a neocon. I have found recently that some Phatmassers flirt with crossing this line. Even if they are in full communion with the Church.
[/quote]


i agree.....

[Didymus]

rock on Philobrat!

I agree with you, sorry if my posts were ever harsh.

[JamesTheYounger]

Hi Philosobrat,
I'm very very sorry to hear that you have been insulted.
Especially in your parish where you were cantor.
I must say that I do not like the idea of altar girls because of the message it may send to people who do not understand why the Church cannot have a female priesthood.
However, it is never a sin for a woman to serve on the altar.

I believe that a lot of feminists do not understand that there are roles for women and roles for men, the roles of women are never any less important than a man's roles.
The Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ and as such will not uphold anything that is not from God.

God, like any good parent, wants His children, like you and I, men and women to be happy. This is why we must observe the roles of women and the roles of men that have been laid out by the Church, because that is the way of achieving true happiness. For us to be happy, men must be men and women must be women.

I've also heard in a course on the Bible that St. Paul was writing to the Corinthians, a community that had 1000 female pagan priests. Part of their service to the pagan religion was prostitution. This is why he tells women to be silent in the Church and to cover their heads, to show them that women are not to be ordained and must be chaste which was in variance to their old religion.

But, don't let anyone get you down. You have great gifts to share, and God will want to work through the gifts he has given you. Everyone has the vocation to teach, perhaps you should look into teaching a catechism class and you can always be active in a youth group. There is always something for you to do.

I know it can be hard, but make sure you pray about it and try to offer up the hurt you feel.
I wish you all the best and I will pray for you.

James

[Didymus]

what's a neocon?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1194492' date='Feb 14 2007, 12:34 AM']
what's a neocon?
[/quote]

neo conservative

[XIX]

Neo-conservative. Person who is constantly conservative.

In a sentence:

Radtrads who flatout reject Vatican II are generally neo-cons spiritually speaking.

Sean Hannity is a neo-con, politically speaking.

These are extreme examples.

Edited February 14, 2007 by XIX

[philosophette]

I have also experienced that self-identified "neocons" seem to be "more Catholic than the pope".

Thank you everyone for your responses so far... sometimes PhatMass can be so discouraging... but hearing from you really does make me feel better.

Edited February 14, 2007 by philosobrat

[avemaria40]

I agree with you. I am an EM at my parish and people here have told me because I'm a woman, I have to get away from the altar. I also would like to wear a chapel veil, but I'm not going to yell at a woman simply because she chooses not to wear one. The Pope hasn't said we must, so until he does, people should just leave women alone when it comes to that sort of thing. People have also insinuated that a woman having an outside job is anti-family. This saddens me because I do intend to go into the work force as a doctor (whether an OB/GYN or a pediatric surgeon, I don't know) I don't think this offends God, in fact, I think this is my calling, since I want to help women and children. I also want to be married and I will be open to children and be the best mother I can be to them.

I also get offended by how some people say that most women are conniving, catty, and unladylike. This hurts because I try my best to be a lady, I hate gossip, and I would never connive with anyone. Yes, I do like some lowbrow humor (Monty Python, etc.) but I don't see that as being unladylike, it just means I have a different sense of humor than most of my female friends. And I don't understand the "Girls can't wear pants" debates either. Am I unholy because I usually wear khakis to church and not skirts? Or that I wear jeans on a regular basis?

St. Edith Stein was a leader for the Catholic feminist movement in Germany. St. Gianna Molla was a pediatric surgeon. St. Joan of Arc lead soldiers into battle. They did things that are sometimes frowned upon as improper for a woman (sadly, even today) yet they served Our Lord as best as they could and gave their all for Him. That's why they are recognized as saints. I don't think God really cared that St. Joan wore mens' trousers or that St. Gianna was a mother who worked outside the home. I think He cared more that they gave their lives to serve Him in whatever He called them to do. That's all anyone can ask of us women, to serve God in all that we do.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='philosobrat' post='1194453' date='Feb 14 2007, 12:54 AM']
I would specifically like to address this to[b] cmotherofpearl [/b][u]because she seems be one of the few people here whom I feel does not get all bend out of shape and spout quotes from documents and tradition every single time someone mentions ANYTHING related to women without actually considering the women they are talking about.

[color="#3366FF"]Other people here are academics and religious professionals, I am just a catholic mum. So they quote documents and I just talk about the things I know or lived.
Both perspectives are useful.[/color]

1) I am SICK SICK SICK of hearing about how women should/must/have to/are offending God and the angels of they do not/are recommended to wear chapel veils in church.
--- Some women feel a call to do this, some women do not. It is not the norm anymore. I do not do it because most of the women who do do it around me are very "holier than thou" about it and it makes me feel ostracized. I respect anyone who does it for devotional reasons, but I think there is a fine line between devotion and showmanship and I have seem far more showmanship than devotion where I live.

[color="#3333FF"]Men do not get this part of our psyche and how we depend on the herd instinct and other peoples behavior, and our desire to fit the norm. It would be nice if people only went to church with their religious instinct and left all others at the door. That is why I like school uniforms, it qwells some of the competitive aspects of human nature in regards to clothing. If every woman were handed a regulation mantilla at the door, much of the diffidulty would be solved, and the men would have to find something else to upset them.[/color]

I also notice that it is mostly MEN who devote SO MUCH time to talking about it. Geesh. If only they were SO INTERESTED in compassionating us and understanding what our monthly annoyance entails.

[color="#3333FF"]You must remember to a male this is mere academics since they wouldn't be the one wearing the head covering. It would be nice if they would spent their time with issues that affect them but it never seem to work that way. You will notice very few women ever bother even to respond to them. Its not an issue in the Church and we have far more important issues today than this one. If and when women decide to cover their heads it will happen. It will be your female generation, not mine who makes this decision.[/color]

2) I feel like there is a spirit of misogyny around here, especially among the more traditionally leaning Catholics. I doubt that it is intention, but it still clouds the discussions. The whole discussion about altar girls in the Creepy Aliens board was more annoying than anything else I have read. The debate was not even kind towards females. It felt a lot like "ew, ew, ew... get them away! They are going to creep the boys out!" rather than something more charitable.

[color="#3333FF"]Ok on this one, I have to side on the girls should not be altar servers, because it IS a path to the priesthood. Boys need a job that only they can do and I think setting them apart for the priesthood for the very beginning should be kept. And as a mother of sons, at a certain age all girls have cooties to males. MOST males get over it. Boys do get tired of competing against girls in school and losing.[/color]

FOR THE LOVE OF MARY people, if you are going to debate SO MUCH about the how women are not to do this or that PLEASE have a few decent conversations about what women CAN DO in the liturgy. What can we do? Is us reading also offensive? I am sure a number of you would say so. How about bringing up the gifts? How about doing the collection? How about ANYTHING.

[color="#3333FF"]I think a women should do everything but serve the altar. WE are excellent readers, cantors, we can carry the gifts, sing in the choir etc. I'm not sure about taking the collection: the males in most churches have a stranglehold on being ushers and collecting the money. Male ushers are great when someone gets sick or passes out, but other than that there is no reason its a single-sex function. I think its because they like playing poker at their meetings away from their wives. [/color]

I am not a mother, I am not a wife, I am not a nun. I do not have those roles in the Church at this time... I am a single woman and I go to church, I participate in the liturgy and I feel very ALONE. I feel like there are few places for me in the Church outside of Mothering someone or cleaning the Church or cooking... THERE has to be more. I did some cantoring at one point and several people had the NERVE to come up to me and tell me that the place of women in the Church is to cook the after Mass meal, not to lead the singing. It hurt even worse because the men who cantor make it a competition and are not nice to one another... and I had spent a month preparing without their support.

[color="#3366FF"]Any activity run by men will be competitive, its their nature. THat you will just have to get used to. Was it men or women telling you to cook?[/color]

I look back at the whole "Alter Girls" discussion and its tag line is "step away from the alter". Excuse me?[b] This is the mindset of the future leaders of the Church?[/b] I love reverence in the Mass, but it is like the involvement of the woman seems to destroy that in their minds. Is not that flesh that the priests hold of a WOMAN. Was not the first Altar of Christ a WOMAN, was not his first throne a WOMAN, was not his first friend a WOMAN, his first disciple a WOMAN, were not the ones who were faithful to him in his passion WOMEN.
People of this mindset which so bothers me also seem to have a deep devotion to Mary, but what kind of Mary do they love? She was WOMAN, she was instrumental in our salvation, she said yes to God when most men would not even have the courage to do so. She had breasts, a womb, long hair, a feminine features and emotions - she was the best of each and every woman we know --- not some kind of uber woman who was/is beyond any other womanly trait we can think of. If she is I do not think I want her for my model then, for that will just set me up for discouragement and failure.


Well, I don't want to be silent. I want to speak, and teach, and love, and use all of my gifts, but as time goes on and I keep being mistreated by men in the Church and put down simply because God made me female I really really wonder if the Catholic religion is really the true faith. How could God, who made men and women both, desire that we be treated like this?

Now do not take me as some kind of liberal, left wing feminist. I am Catholic feminist. I do not want a female priesthood or anything like that. What I want is for YOU MEN to stop talking to us like we are either idiots, going to take over the Church, want to destroy the Church, want to take away all of your little roles from you and never give them back... talk to us as if you are the sole authority on EVERYTHING CATHOLIC even though you are lay men and not priests or bishops... you are not greater than we are just because you are a man or have read more books than we have time to because we are busy serving and doing your laundry, cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the children.

Do you know why we are silent, why we do not have time to do all that you do? It is because we are fulfilling the love of Christ in the lives of others. You may have the staff, but we have the heart and the heart is what draws people to Christ.

So, PLEASE people, lets have a conversation about what women CAN DO in the Church and the liturgy... because I am VERY frustrated.

Thank you.
[color="#3333FF"]
Preach it sister : [/color]

Thanks! :-)
[/quote]

[MissScripture]

[quote name='avemaria40' post='1194645' date='Feb 14 2007, 09:17 AM']


I also get offended by how some people say that most women are conniving, catty, and unladylike. This hurts because I try my best to be a lady, I hate gossip, and I would never connive with anyone. Yes, I do like some lowbrow humor (Monty Python, etc.) but I don't see that as being unladylike, it just means I have a different sense of humor than most of my female friends. And I don't understand the "Girls can't wear pants" debates either. Am I unholy because I usually wear khakis to church and not skirts? Or that I wear jeans on a regular basis?

[/quote]
I totally agree with you on the pants thing! It drives me nuts when people try to tell me that you can't be feminine and wear pants. Honestly, with me, it's FAR more modest to wear pants than skirts. Let's just say that I've had more than a few unpleasent experiences with skirts! I don't care if other girls want to (provided they are decent skirts and actually COVER something!), but do not try to make me. I wear skirts only when I HAVE to (fuerals and weddings, basically).

[XIX]

[quote]Men do not get this part of our psyche.[/quote]

si.

[scardella]

Umm. I like women. I'd love to be making enough so that my future wifey, whomever she may be, would not be financially forced to have a job. I don't make that kind of money though.

The real question, for me, is if she made buckets of money in a time-consuming job, would I be willing to be Mr. Mom? I don't know. It's a tough idea for a guy to accept.