The Cc Teach You Can't Understand

[Anna]

I didn't see it any where between the first page in Genesis and the last page in Revelation but I did see and read letter to the seven church that both the Apostle and Jesus wrote to.

I'd like to see one of those letters Jesus wrote!

Gotta get me one of Larry's "bibles," I guess.

If it was when and where did it become the CC?

Right here: "You are Kepha,(Aramaic, Rock) and upon this kepha I will build my Church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I give you the keys of the kingdom. Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatsoever you loosen on earth, shall be loosened in heaven." Matthew 16:16-19

Jesus appointed a leader for His Church. Peter (Kepha) was the first pope.

Jesus taught the Apostles how to instruct the faithful, the first Catholics.

Jesus never wrote a letter. He didn't need to. He taught by Word of Mouth.

The Apostles were together praying after they witnessed Christ ascend into heaven. After ten days, He sent down the Holy Spirit. The Church, which had been in formation while Christ walked the earth, was "born" on Pentecost in 33 AD.

From that day on, the Apostles moved on to different areas to preach the Good News to all different peoples.

The seven churches were the first seven dioceses, each run by one of the Apostles or disciples, the first Catholic bishops. They were all loyal and united, believing in all the same doctrines Christ had taught. No denominational differences. One baptism, One Faith, One Lord.

This One True Church grew and grew. Heresies came and were condemned by the Early Church Fathers.

Finally, one heretic decided to take the issue a bit further, and in the 1500's, he broke away and established his own church, with his own man-made doctrine, called Sola Scriptura.

The Apostles never taught Sola Scriptura. Neither did Jesus. Neither did the Early Church Fathers. Even the Bible does not claim Sola Scriptura. In fact, it says that Christ taught many other things, which are not written down, and It says to follow both what has been written, as well as the Sacred Traditions which are being passed down from the words of their mouths, which had not been written.

Only the Catholic Church was around at that time and knows what those Sacred Traditions even are! And that is because the Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself.

Christ built the Church, and He promised It would survive against all the attacks from the pits of hell.

He didn't promise that to a broad bunch of denominations. He promised it to His One, True Church, which He established.

Christ trusted in His Church.

That's good enough for me.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited January 25, 2004 by Anna

[Dave]

dude, I've already argued this and Catholics admitted there is an invisible church. You really think Christ is going to marry the Catholic Church with all of it's members? When He marries the church He marries only believers, and only believers are in the true church. I really don't think you are that nieve to believe everyone who is a member of the Catholic Church is saved if Christ returned today...

Again, freaking STOP with your stereotypes. I DO BELIEVE I COULD BE WRONG. I am not arrogant like that. Get over yourself and consider who you are talking to, not what you have been taught. All I've said is lies all over this forum? Ugh - no response.

1. No Catholic here has ever admitted there's an invisible Church! Also, just because someone is in the Church is no guarantee they'll be saved. No, not all Catholics will be saved, but that doesn't mean they were never part of the Church. As for non-Catholics who believe in the Lord and strive to follow Him, they too constitute part of the CATHOLIC Church, but only imperfectly so, as they're not in union with the successor of St. Peter the Apostle, namely the Pope.

2. Say what you want . . . the stuff you've said all over this board speaks for itself.

[Anna]

'the church' I belong to, the invisible one began at pentecost however and it is still adding members daily.

Then you would be a Catholic, for Pentecost is the birthday of the Catholic Church!

[Circle_Master]

1. No Catholic here has ever admitted there's an invisible Church!  Also, just because someone is in the Church is no guarantee they'll be saved.  No, not all Catholics will be saved, but that doesn't mean they were never part of the Church.  As for non-Catholics who believe in the Lord and strive to follow Him, they too constitute part of the CATHOLIC Church, but only imperfectly so, as they're not in union with the successor of St. Peter the Apostle, namely the Pope.

you are so contradicting yourself. let me see

you said

a) there is no invisible church

b) in the Catholic Church not all will be saved

c) the church consists of all believers

so... how does that work? it can't. if the church is only believers, and the Catholic Church is not only believers, then a contradiction exists and an invisible church is necessary. Do you really believe everyone who is dead is outside of the church as well? Well, they aren't in the visible church, so they must not be in it at all! Of course not, you have to agree in an invisible church.

2. Say what you want . . . the stuff you've said all over this board speaks for itself.

I take offense at this.

and btw for anna - matthew was not in aramaic first. there are no signs in the greek of it ever being a translation. it uses greek figures of speech and no aramaic. if it is from the aramaic the greek is a interpretative translation and not a true one so you must throw out the entire book.

Edited January 25, 2004 by Circle_Master

[Dave]

you are so contradicting yourself. let me see

you said

a) there is no invisible church

b) in the Catholic Church not all will be saved

c) the church consists of all believers

so... how does that work? it can't. if the church is only believers, and the Catholic Church is not only believers, then a contradiction exists and an invisible church is necessary. Do you really believe everyone who is dead is outside of the church as well? Well, they aren't in the visible church, so they must not be in it at all! Of course not, you have to agree in an invisible church.

I take offense at this.

and btw for anna - matthew was not in aramaic first. there are no signs in the greek of it ever being a translation. it uses greek figures of speech and no aramaic. if it is from the aramaic the greek is a interpretative translation and not a true one so you must throw out the entire book.

1. Actually, there's nothing contradictory about it. You're not reading what I said carefully. I said that non-Catholics are also part of the Catholic Church, which is a VISIBLE Church. But they don't have full union with the Catholic Church. So technically they're part of the Church, yet at the same time they're not technically part of the Church. They have one foot in the door and one foot out the door. Sorry if that sounds confusing.

BTW, in Protestant churches not all will be saved either. Not everyone in those churches who believes will be saved either.

As for those who are dead and are in heaven, everyone in heaven is Catholic. They may not all have been Catholic during their life, but for those in heaven, Jesus in all in all and so now they know and accept the full truth about Him.

2. The truth hurts, buddy.

[Anna]

and btw for anna - matthew was not in aramaic first.  there are no signs in the greek of it ever being a translation.  it uses greek figures of speech and no aramaic.  if it is from the aramaic the greek is a interpretative translation and not a true one so you must throw out the entire book.

Doesn't really matter if Matthew wrote it in Greek: Jesus spoke it in Aramaic, the common language of the day to the Jews in that area.

St. John's Gospel records the words of Jesus when he met the fisherman, Simon Bar-Jona for the very first time;

John 1:42

He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas" (which means Peter). Looking at the Greek, Matthew used the demonstrative pronoun taute, which means 'this very,' when he referred to the rock on which the Church would be built: 'You are Peter, and on taute petra(this very rock), 'I will build My Church.'

Also, when a demonstrative pronoun is used with the Greek word for 'and,' which is 'kai,' the pronoun refers back to the preceding noun. In other words, when Jesus says, 'You are rock, and on this rock I will build My Church,' the second rock He refers to has to be the same rock as the first one. Peter is the rock in both cases.

Jesus could have gotten around it if He'd wanted to. He didn't have to say, 'And(kai) on this rock I will build My Church.' He could've said, 'But(alla) on this rock I will build My Church,' meaning another rock. He would have then had to explain who or what this other rock was. But He didn't do that.

Edited January 25, 2004 by Anna

[Circle_Master]

2. The truth hurts, buddy.

you don't know me, and you haven't even read half of my posts i've put on this board and yet you have already judged me. i think i'm done dealing with you for now until either i am not angry towards you, or you apologize for your own attack.

[Circle_Master]

Doesn't really matter if Matthew wrote it in Greek: Jesus spoke it in Aramaic, the common language of the day to the Jews in that area.

St. John's Gospel records the words of Jesus when he met the fisherman, Simon Bar-Jona for the very first time;

John 1:42

He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas" (which means Peter).

greek was also common. it was the trade language of the entire eastern roman empire. you really think when Jesus spoke with all the roman officials he only spoke aramaic as well? They probably spoke greek first, and possibly some as bilingual. I am not sure on the statistics of how many were multilingual.

Edited January 25, 2004 by Circle_Master

[Anna]

greek was also common. it was the trade language of the entire eastern roman empire. you really think when Jesus spoke with all the roman officials he only spoke aramaic as well? They probably spoke greek first, and possibly some as bilingual. I am not sure on the statistics of how many were multilingual.

Greek was common, true, especially among tradesmen from various lands.

But we're talking about the language He spoke amongst His closest, most intimate companions. His followers. Not the language He spoke to tradesmen, and not the language He spoke to the Roman officials. The language He spoke to His Apostles. It is widely accepted that He spoke the common language Aramaic.

However, re-read my edit above regarding the Greek. It still stands that Christ was referring to Peter as the Rock upon which He would build His Church. The following verses continue, I give YOU the keys to the keys...Whatsoever YOU bind...Whatsoever YOU loosen...He is definitely speaking to the man, Peter.

[Circle_Master]

However, re-read my edit above regarding the Greek. It still stands that Christ was referring to Peter as the Rock upon which He would build His Church. The following verses continue, I give YOU the keys to the keys...Whatsoever YOU bind...Whatsoever YOU loosen...He is definitely speaking to the man, Peter.

I agree with most of that. Not that Peter is the rock, but the rest of it yeah. Even if Peter happened to be the rock, it doesn't really affect my theology at all. He did much work in the formation of the church. The rock would merely be the foundation, not the primacy or dictator of thus.