The Cc Teach You Can't Understand

[Bruce S]

Stop taking credit away from the CC. The CC was the Early Church.

Sorry.

Denominational bias, that is all that leads you believe that.

Go to any "Orthodox Board" they claim YOU stole it from THEM, and if you really want to be completely accurate, go to any Messianic Jewish site, they claim EVERYONE stole it away from THEM!

Of course, I can chuckle at that all, and NOTE how very similar are the denominational biases of the R-CC.

[Truth]

larry,

i read what u posted several times and i honestly don't see where it says that the Church believes that we are so ignorant that it must tell us everything. to me it says that all men have the capacity to reason and to know God, but that the stain of original sin and our own selfish will keeps us from knowing Him as we ought.

first of all, any role the Church would play in this is not even mentioned in the post. secondly, where does it say that the Church does not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to lead its members to truth?

maybe you are looking too hard for a "fact" that is not there.....

Good Luck and God Bless You in your search for Truth,

phatcatholic

The CC know that you are because you have not received the Holy Spirit.

[Paladin D]

Indeed? Sheesh. Again I note, I thought Christians did that too?

I might remind everyone, for the umpteenth time, that most Protestant SCHOLARS read the same early church leaders, opinion papers, etc, as the Catholic Church.

Only we are NOT completely "hung up" on insisting a DENOMINATION was at work then.

WE...isn't WE...or US, it was THEM, and THEM were Christians, not Roman Catholics.

Bruce, please explain to me...

How would a former-Pentecostal/AOG believer, come to realize the truth of Catholicism? I started my search for truth, and I found it. I wasn't raised in this particular belief system, I chose it!

So what you seem to be implying is, that since Catholics are loyal to the Church... they are assumingly wrong when it comes to historical accounts that are in their favor?

Notice how you mentioned Protestant SCHOLARS, they are biased.

[Truth]

The key is THE HOLY SPIRIT. The WORD OF GOD IS OF SPIRIT not of man.

Edited January 24, 2004 by Truth

[Bruce S]

Bruce, please explain to me...

How would a former-Pentecostal/AOG believer, come to realize the truth of Catholicism? I started my search for truth, and I found it. I wasn't raised in this particular belief system, I chose it!

So what you seem to be implying is, that since Catholics are loyal to the Church... they are assumingly wrong when it comes to historical accounts that are in their favor?

Notice how you mentioned Protestant SCHOLARS, they are biased.

You went THAT WAY... I came THIS WAY, funny how all roads DON'T "Lead to Rome"

I think that any Protestant that doesn't take the time to inform themselves about CHRISTIAN history, writings, and battles, is one that takes things at face value and could benefit greatly FROM those that have gone before us.

Now, I note in passing, that the founders of Protestantism, in all of its glorious variety, were NOT ignorant dolts. Calvin, Luther, Wycliff, Huss, were ALL first, Catholic SCHOLARS, note and re-read that again. ALL Catholic scholars.

They were blessed with the skill, insights, and prodding from God to UNBUNDLE the message of salvation from man made denominational baggage. Rather like Jesus himself had to do with Judaism.

Jews had added so much to the message over the centuries that the underlying Covenent relationship with God was gone, and so, had the Covenent relationship with Jesus been burdened with even more denominational baggage, prompting the Reformation. Later on Pentecostals "rediscovered" the Spirit of God that had been buried under formalized dogma's, and re-envigorated all Christianity ... including the Catholic Church who ... along with everyone else, had settled into a ritualized Christianity.

Just worth noting.

[Paladin D]

The key is THE HOLY SPIRIT. The WORD OF GOD IS OF SPIRIT not of man.

Exactly, and?

[Paladin D]

Sorry.

Denominational bias, that is all that leads you believe that.

Go to any "Orthodox Board" they claim YOU stole it from THEM, and if you really want to be completely accurate, go to any Messianic Jewish site, they claim EVERYONE stole it away from THEM!

Of course, I can chuckle at that all, and NOTE how very similar are the denominational biases of the R-CC.

Your bias is very much the same, considering you uphold the position that your beliefs are inline with early Christianity (or very similar to it). So in other words...

"Look who's talkin."

[Dave]

The Holy Spirit is just that Holy and would not lead me to the un-holy CC. For it is the Woman in Rev.

The Catholic Church is NOT the woman in Revelation. That was dealt with on another thread. So if you opened your heart and mind to the Spirit, who knows? That could possibly be where He'd lead you if only you'd follow!

[Dave]

Sorry.

Denominational bias, that is all that leads you believe that.

The Catholic Church isn't a denomination, as there's nothing for it to denominate from. It's Christ's Church.

Go to any "Orthodox Board" they claim YOU stole it from THEM, and if you really want to be completely accurate, go to any Messianic Jewish site, they claim EVERYONE stole it away from THEM!

Of course, I can chuckle at that all, and NOTE how very similar are the denominational biases of the R-CC.

If they're not the Church Jesus founded, then it's only natural that they'd have wrong ideas as to which Church really fits that description. But if you'd read the early Christian writings we've provided for you or look in the Catholic Apologetics section, then, if you read them carefully, thoroughly, and with an open mind, then you'd see that the Catholic Church IS the Church Jesus founded. That doesn't come from bias; it just comes from facts.

[Paladin D]

You went THAT WAY... I came THIS WAY, funny how all roads DON'T "Lead to Rome"

So if one was to fall off the road, does that mean all roads don't lead to Rome?

I think that any Protestant that doesn't take the time to inform themselves about CHRISTIAN history, writings, and battles, is one that takes things at face value and could benefit greatly FROM those that have gone before us.

Exactly.

Now, I note in passing, that the founders of Protestantism, in all of its glorious variety, were NOT ignorant dolts. Calvin, Luther, Wycliff, Huss, were ALL first,  Catholic SCHOLARS, note and re-read that again. ALL Catholic scholars.

They were blessed with the skill, insights, and prodding from God to UNBUNDLE the message of salvation from man made denominational baggage. Rather like Jesus himself had to do with Judaism.

So you are implying that none of the Early Church Fathers (most who's teachings are identical to the Catholic Church today), were somehow... inferior? Scott Hahn was a former-Presbytarian (typo?), now he's a Catholic apologist (if not, a scholar?). Not including many others that exist today.

Or how about those that converted away from Christianity as a whole? Their mission to discredit Christianity? Are they somehow... valid?

Jews had added so much to the message over the centuries that the underlying Covenent relationship with God was gone, and so, had the Covenent relationship with Jesus been burdened with even more denominational baggage, prompting the Reformation.

I'm confused. Are you saying that the Jews re-wrote the OT? Or they just added/twisted traditions to fulfill their own desires?

The Catholic Church doesn't do such things.

Later on Pentecostals "rediscovered" the Spirit of God that had been buried under formalized dogma's, and re-envigorated all Christianity ... including the Catholic Church who ... along with everyone else, had settled into a ritualized Christianity.

Isn't Pentecostalism a denomination? You are only stating your assumptions on what the Church was at that time. The Catholic Church at that time wasn't in the best shape (some of the leaders were corrupt), but none of the dogma (or doctrine?) was touched (which is a VERY good thing). But it would be a different story, if those corrupt leaders changed the dogma (or doctrine?) of the Church.

Just worth noting.

Maybe.

[Circle_Master]

If they're not the Church Jesus founded, then it's only natural that they'd have wrong ideas as to which Church really fits that description.

ahh. very true. that is why I am not a Catholic

...  But if you'd read the early Christian writings we've provided for you or look in the Catholic Apologetics section, then, if you read them carefully, thoroughly, and with an open mind, then you'd see that the Catholic Church IS the Church Jesus founded.  That doesn't come from bias; it just comes from facts.

Read through many articles there actually. And there is severe misrepresentation of many protestant doctrines (word choices from a 'Catholic' perspective) and they don't deal with many of the rebuttals presented against them. Maybe they are good for someone with no education, but there are problems in most on even semantic issues.

[Dave]

The key is THE HOLY SPIRIT. The WORD OF GOD IS OF SPIRIT not of man.

But you're not allowing yourself to be guided by the Holy Spirit here. The Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth. God is Truth. Therefore, God can't and won't lead anyone to do or say whatever is at odds with that truth. Rather, you're letting yourself be led by your feelings, opinions, and ignorance. Those have never led anyone to anything that God wills.

[Paladin D]

The Holy Spirit is just that Holy and would not lead me to the un-holy CC. For it is the Woman in Rev.

Nice assumption.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Stop taking credit away from the CC. The CC was the Early Church.

Sorry.

Denominational bias, that is all that leads you believe that.

HA!! As if a bias is all that leads us to believe that! I suspect you haven't looked at all the evidency.

And I must point out that the Ordthodox are a unique case. The Catholic Church is the Early Church and the Orthodox Church is the Early Church. These statements are not mutually exclusive because in the Early Church there was no schism so these were one Church.

You can't say this about the protestants because they've abandoned the Church Hierarchy, the Sacraments, Sacred Tradition, etc. and replaced then with bastard doctrines and traditions of men. The Early Church, in it's structures and teachings subsists in the Catholic Church and in the East, but not in protestantism.

And the schism between East and West is being healed so that as the Pope says, the Church can "breath with both lungs".

Edited January 24, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Anna]

Now, I note in passing, that the founders of Protestantism, in all of its glorious variety, were NOT ignorant dolts. Calvin, Luther, Wycliff, Huss, were ALL first, Catholic SCHOLARS, note and re-read that again. ALL Catholic scholars.

They were blessed with the skill, insights, and prodding from God to UNBUNDLE the message of salvation from man made denominational baggage.

Why do you suppose that is, Bruce S?

Well, that is because there was really only One True Church at the time, and they were part of that whole. There were no denominations. There was One Whole Church.

Then, these men came, inventing new doctrines. Doctrines of men! And they founded denominations (de= from) (nom=name). The broke from the Church and founded churches in their own names, under their own personal authorship, and their own personal authority.

It wasn't God prodding them out of the Church He instituted. Christ's One True Church will never fail. We have His Word on it.

So, if God didn't lead them out of His Church, what was it? Mostly human pride. They were so very scholarly, they thought they knew more about God than all the Early Fathers combined. The Early Fathers were loyal to the pope. They believed in being united to the pope, and obedient to bishops.

This is the first element which is missing in the Catholic-scholars-turned-protestant: refusal to submit to authority.

Even Christ submitted to earthly authorities. He did this to show that it is pleasing to the Father to humble oneself.

These scholars were not motivated by God to leave His Church; they were motivated, most likely, by their own pride. (The deadliest of sins)

And this "sin" of the Protestant Fathers is often "passed down over the generations." Some people are so hell-bent on being right about their convictions, that they will stare glaring historical facts and religious truths in the face, and reject them, just because they can't bear to admit they might be wrong!

Pax Christi. <><