OCD vs O Carm

[AccountDeleted]

I have finally decided to narrow my discernment down to contemplative Carmelites but I just got a message back from an O Carm community that asked how I would deal with the dormitory living.

As far as I knew, Carmel always has a separate cell for each nun, so this was a shock to me. I have always communicated with Discalced Carmels before but I just assumed that the OCD and O Carm were pretty similar these days. I know that St Teresa reformed the Carmelites (hence the OCD order) but maybe someone there can explain to me the difference these days in the two Carmelite orders. We are only talking cloistered contemplative here.

Thanks




PS The community in question is
[url="http://carmelnet.org/christoval/christoval.htm"]THE CARMELITE NUNS[/url]of Our Lady of Grace Monastery
Christoval, Texas

[Totus Tuus]

A dormitory seems very strange for a Carmelite community; so much of the life is based on the solitude of the cell and much of the work seems to be done alone in the cell to encourage the meditative atmosphere... maybe this is solely an O.C.D. thing... I don't know anything really about OCarms

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1193080' date='Feb 12 2007, 08:27 PM']
A dormitory seems very strange for a Carmelite community; so much of the life is based on the solitude of the cell and much of the work seems to be done alone in the cell to encourage the meditative atmosphere... maybe this is solely an O.C.D. thing... I don't know anything really about OCarms
[/quote]


It is a shame because they were so sweet to me and said they would pray about my age (I am 54). Most of the US communities have just said "no" or even that perhaps I didn't have a vocation to the religious life after all - and that I should be happy where I am! lol

I have had great response from the UK with several communities offering to let me apply (no age limits).

So for this Carmel to say they would pray and think about it, and then say I could visit if I wanted, was really sweet of them. But when they asked how I would adapt to dormitory life, I was really surprised. I just never thought about the differences between O Carm (which this one is) and the OCD which all seem to have not only cells, but hermitages as well! I guess solitude isn't as important in the O Carm order?

[Chiquitunga]

Hi! Well actually I've never heard of this Carmelite community before. I just know of the 2 OCarm communities associated with the IRL in North Dakota and Penn. If they're associated with the IRL, you can pretty much guarantee they're going to be solid.

Coopersburg, PA - [url="http://religiouslife.com/vocsearch/search.phtml?view=d&my_id=31&criteria=d"]http://religiouslife.com/vocsearch/search....&criteria=d[/url]

Wahpeton, ND - [url="http://religiouslife.com/vocsearch/search.phtml?view=d&my_id=53&criteria=d"]http://religiouslife.com/vocsearch/search....&criteria=d[/url]


Then there is one in Hudson, WI, but they are a little more not as traditional, though they are faithful to the Church and wear habits, but are a smaller community. But they are part of the same group, if that's the right word, as the 2 on the IRL site - as it says in the community info - represented in the US in SD, PA, & WI. So maybe the ones in Texas are another branch of some sort, I'm not sure ...

But the 2 on the IRL site in ND and PA seem to be great and live a way of life very similar to the OCD nuns. I believe the main difference between these Carmels and the OCDs, is that they would have more of a focus on their heritage and the beginnings of Carmel on Mt. Carmel and the earlier Carmelite saints, like St. Simon Stock. However, I believe they are also pretty devoted to St. Teresa and all the OCD saints too. St. Teresa did reform the order, so the OCDs are the reformed branch, but these communities in PA and ND do seem pretty disciplined and everything.

I've never heard of this dorm. type living, and am not sure what that means - that they share the same private room, as dorms in colleges are? In that case, I thought I read in [i]Verbi Sponsa[/i], instruction for contemplative nuns for the Vatican, that in all contemplative orders, all nuns must have a private cell.

I guess one difference would be the particular rule that St. Teresa gave, that her Carmels would not be over 21 sisters. But I'd say the main difference would be that the OCD nuns are really the direct daughters of St. Teresa of Avila, as she is very much their Holy Mother. While the OCarm.s are not this way, though they love her, as she is a great Carmelite saint.

But really, I am not that sure, as I have never cooresponded with an OCarm community.

Here is something I wrote in the "Order of Mt. Carmel" thread:

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1143841' date='Dec 16 2006, 03:08 PM']
I thought I would post information and pictures of some Carmelite communities and who they are here. (I do focus more on the nuns here, as I do not know very much about the monks and all the male Carmelite religious in the world - feel free to add more about them too)

First, there are 2 'Orders of Mt. Carmel' in the Church today. (I thought I would write this in case if someone is searching online for Carmelites and comes here, they'll find a simple explanation - then they can search further for more information - feel free to correct any information here)

The Carmelites of the Ancient Observance is the first Order that originated with the hermits on Mount Carmel in Palestine. They sign after their names, O.Carm. There are several good Carmelites from this Order today. There are a couple monasteries of cloistered nuns associated with the [url="http://www.religiouslife.com"]IRL[/url], which you can find on their Vocation Search, searching 'Carmel.' There are also great new communities of Carmelite monks who have been agragated into this Order, like the [url="http://www.decorcarmeli.com/Hermits.htm"]Hermits of the Blessed Virgin Mary[/url].

Here's a picture of some of the cloistered O.Carm. nuns (Coopersburg, PA):
[img]http://religiouslife.com/vocsearch/images/reg/reg_31.jpg[/img]

They love all the Carmelite saints, like St. Teresa of Avila, and definitely read her writings, but she is not specifically their Mother and Foundress, like the Discalced Carmelites.[/quote]

Another thing that might be slightly off topic, but that I heard about the Coopersburg Carmel, is that they found the body of their Mother foundress intact with this little palm branch that was placed with her intact too. So it is under investigation currently .. [url="http://www.spiritdaily.org/Sign_Wonders/Mothertherese.htm"]http://www.spiritdaily.org/Sign_Wonders/Mothertherese.htm[/url] ( I didn't realize also that St. John of the Cross's body is incorrupt - but looking it up onlne, I see other sources that say this too ..) But this site about Mother Therese in Coopersburg ..does say St. Therese of the Child Jesus was in the Ancient Observance Order, but she was an OCD .. but it says this Carmel was highly influenced by St. Teresa and St. John .. but it may still have been .. not sure ...anyway, it's pretty awesome how the Mother foundress of that Carmel is incorrupt .. and this Carmel does seem to be pretty influenced by the OCDs in that it's name in the Carmel of St. Therese of St. Mary Magdalene de Pazzi (2 OCDs). It was founded I believe autonomously by this incorrupt Mother Therese in the 1930s, but in the OCarm order ..

Okay, I hope some of this has helped .. Here is our Order of Mt Carmel thread too.. for more Carmel info.. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=58792&st=0"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...=58792&st=0[/url] and then you've probably seen the OCD 1990 & 1991 Constitutions thread too.

[AccountDeleted]

Margaret Clare - thanks for all the info. This is what the Sister wrote to me...

[i]"You are aware that living in a dormitory with a couple of other Sisters, as well as following the community schedule, might be a difficult after your years of independence. When a person first comes to visit, we let them stay in a private room with a shower outside the cloister, but attached to the monastery. Even after one enters, the assimilation process is gradual."[/i]


I haven't responded yet because I was so surprised at the dormitory situation and needed to think and pray about this. She might only be referring to sharing a bathroom? I will write back and ask some questions about this. I have lived in a nurse's home in Australia when I first started nursing, and we each had our own dorm bedroom but shared a common shower, bathroom area, and kitchen, TV room. If that is what she means, I can handle that no problem -- but if she means the sharing of a bedroom space - then I don't know if I could handle that. I have heard of convents where they have a sheet between the individual beds, but they all share the dorm bedroom space -- I am a very light sleeper and that would mean I never slept again!!

[AccountDeleted]

I found them on this site
[url=http://carmelites.info/nuns/monasteries%20by%20location.htm]MONASTERIES OF CARMELITE NUNS
BY GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION[/url]


I put them in bold...

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Carmelite Nuns of Allentown
Allentown, Pennsylvania


Carmel of the Sacred Heart
Hudson, Wisconsin
Website
email: carmelit@pressenter.com

[b]Carmel of Our Lady of Grace
Christoval Texas
Website
email: desertcarmel@earthlink.net[/b]

Carmel of Mary
Wahpeton, North Dakota
Website
email: carmelofmary@carmelnet.org

[Chiquitunga]

Oh yeah, no that would not be good, if it means having the same bedroom. I'll have to look in Verbi Sponsa to see if I can find anything referring to this.

But yeah, ask specifically about this, because if she just means, to share a common bathroom, then of course that's how all convents are, except those that have individual hermitages - which is pretty rare. Okay, keep us updated. I hope everything works out for you. That so awesome how you've discerned it's the Lord's will for you to be in Carmel! Have you thought of looking into any OCD communities too? God bless you!

MargaretClare

[quote name='nunsense' post='1193221' date='Feb 12 2007, 11:49 PM']
I found them on this site - [url="http://carmelites.info/nuns/monasteries%20by%20location.htm"]http://carmelites.info/nuns/monasteries%20by%20location.htm[/url]
[/quote] Ah, okay, I had never heard of them in Texas. They do look like they have a beautiful monastery. I think if I were joining an OCarm community, I would first look at the ones associated with the IRL. But they may be great also. You might want to look into the OCD Carmels too though, since they are particularly the daughters of St. Teresa of Avila. There are like 60something in the US.

[url="http://www.ocd.pcn.net/ocd/n2_usa.htm"]http://www.ocd.pcn.net/ocd/n2_usa.htm[/url]

Then here's the thread on the 2 different Constitutions of OCD nuns - though they are still the same order, and united under their Holy Mother St. Teresa - [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=58540&mode=linear"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...amp;mode=linear[/url]

It is a bit of an exhausting thread to read .. so if you just would like to the complete list of the Carmels under the older constitutions, go to the very end .. but still, many other OCD Carmels are great!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1193222' date='Feb 12 2007, 10:06 PM']
You might want to look into the OCD Carmels too though, since they are particularly the daughters of St. Teresa of Avila. There are like 60something in the US.

[url="http://www.ocd.pcn.net/ocd/n2_usa.htm"]http://www.ocd.pcn.net/ocd/n2_usa.htm[/url]
[/quote]


I have written to nearly every OCD Carmel in the US and almost all of them have simply said "too old". That is why I was surpised when these ones said they would pry about it and get back to me.

I am still waiting replies on about 3 of them. These ones did not have email so I had to send snail mail.

The Wolverhampton UK OCD already sent me an application and instructions on what to do to apply. They said that I could EITHER come for a visit first, or just enter as a postulant directly. Since the postulancy is a time of discernment, they have no problem with overseas candidates entering directly instead of coming for a visit, because the rule is that a visitor must go home again before deciding to enter. They have told me that if all goes well with the application and the community says yes, then I can enter in July! Their only stipulation was that I have enough money to pay the return fare if I decided to leave.

I would naturally prefer to live closer to home, so that any family who wanted to visit, could do so whenever it was allowed. But if that is not what God wants, then I will go wherever I have to in order to enter Carmel.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1193236' date='Feb 13 2007, 12:15 AM'] I have written to nearly every OCD Carmel in the US and almost all of them have simply said "too old". That is why I was surpised when these ones said they would pry about it and get back to me.

I am still waiting replies on about 3 of them. These ones did not have email so I had to send snail mail. [/quote] Oh, I'm very sorry. That must be soo very hard. There has to be an OCD Carmel in the US that would accept you .. hmm ..but of course I don't know ..but if this Carmel in TX will accept you, that's great ... have you tried the other OCarms. too? Have you tried the Arlington, TX Carmel? If you have also a recommendation from a priest / spiritual director that can also help for communities to consider an older vocation also..

Wow, so this UK OCD Carmel is ready to accept you .. but yeah, that is far .. I'm sort of thinking of some far places too .. but am not sure ..

I'll keep you in my prayers!

[Totus Tuus]

I haven't read through the whole thread (as usual ) But I was wondering, TeresaAvila, did the UK Carmel say they would accept you because they accept older vocations in general, or do they need vocations so badly that they will take anyone? Have you already gone for a visit? I don't mean to sound blunt, so forgive me if this sounds harsh. I would be wary of a community that is so desperate for vocations if that is the case; not that they are unorthodox or anything, but that they might not be prudent in their acceptance of vocations (and therefore it could very well be more difficult for you if you did enter there). The fact that they don't have an age limit, if that is the case, might also show some desperation. But maybe this is a singularly Carmelite characteristic...

For example, the Lockport Dominicans in Louisiana are in a way "desperate" for vocations (being that they are a very small community) but are totally abandoned to Divine Providence in this regard, and will not accept [i]just anyone[/i] who applies. There is a thorough process of application and visiting, etc., before a decision is reached. This is prudent, and shows that even though they need vocations they are going to choose people who are indeed suited to give religious life a try.

[treynolds]

Well i think that O. Carm have not adopted to the changes that John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila. I also have heard that the O. Carms can be less contemplative and not as "discalced". They are still good though, just a different spirituality. Also, about the Poor Clares, they are centered totally around Eucharistic Adoration, where as Carmelites focus more on silence (not necessessarily in Eucharistic Adoration). I also have heard that the Carmelites are stricter with their rule

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1193350' date='Feb 13 2007, 06:22 AM']
I haven't read through the whole thread (as usual ) [/quote]


PS - maybe reading through the whole thread first would give you a good idea of some of the things I have already said about this??

Praise God.

Edited February 13, 2007 by nunsense

[Piamaria]

This really surprised me. I guess I thought all carmelite nuns were eremetical. Do you think dormitory could be the term for where the cells are? Or maybe those in formation have to share?

Where I am going, not a contemplatve community, the postulants share a room with bunkbeds but the professed certainly don't.

Can you ask them for a clarification in order to better answer the question?

Anyways, good luck.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1193589' date='Feb 13 2007, 12:14 PM']
PS - maybe reading through the whole thread first would give you a good idea of some of the things I have already said about this??

Praise God.
[/quote]

Hey nunsense: I didn't mean to come off too strongly. I have heard a lot of stories about vocations that didn't work out because of the [i]community[/i] not using discretion, but I didn't mean it to be discouraging or anything. I will definitely try to go back and read your posts. God bless you (Oh, and sorry for getting your screen name wrong in my previous post )

Lauren

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1194350' date='Feb 13 2007, 08:45 PM']
Hey nunsense: I didn't mean to come off too strongly. I have heard a lot of stories about vocations that didn't work out because of the [i]community[/i] not using discretion, but I didn't mean it to be discouraging or anything. I will definitely try to go back and read your posts. God bless you (Oh, and sorry for getting your screen name wrong in my previous post )

Lauren
[/quote]


Lauren

I hope I didn't react too strongly either? At my age, the whole discernment process seems much too slow - lol! But then today my new spiritual director said he couldn't consider me old at 54 since he is 85!!! I guess I still have 30+ good years left to offer to the Lord, so I won't despair!

The UK Carmelites have been so welcoming and wonderful. I heard from the Novice Mistress today who told me that they are very traditional. She said...

[i]"We are more “traditional” than many Carmels in Britain, in the habit we wear,... and in our observance of enclosure. We keep to the requirements of Papal enclosure stated by our constitutions, in that we still have a fixed grille in the parlours (Speak rooms) and chapel, and do not go out to visit relatives, etc., but leave the enclosure only for health reasons, or other necessary business, as permitted. We no longer have “Extern” Sisters, so this means that we sometimes have to do shopping, banking, etc for ourselves, and we find that using the car (several of us drive) is an effective way of avoiding too much contact with the world outside (on public transport, etc).Of course, we use the internet and mail for as much shopping as possible. So, as you see, we are prepared to adapt to present day needs, while preserving the basic elements of detachment which are essential to our life of prayer. There is a wonderful spirit of sisterly love and simplicity here that is noticed by all who have contact with us, and this seems to be a result of the sacrifice we have all made, giving ourselves radically to God in this particular lifestyle. "[/i]

I want to just say "yes" to them, but my spiritual director asked me to apply to all the US orders first, so I said I would. I have already enquired via email to all who have this, but now need to write to those who only have snail mail.

BTW - my director is absolutely fantastic, and I love him! Father Paul is a priest, monk and hermit of the Cistercian/Trappist order and was a Master of novices for 10+ years. He became a hermit after a major heart attack, but his superior asked him after 10 years to return to spiritual direction, so Father Paul says he isn't much of a "hermit" any more. God chose the the most perfect and holy person to guide me - and I am so blessed!