Mr.Cat Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 (edited) It is sinful to put ourselves into an occasion of sin or temptation because it is offending to God to tempt ourselves or put ourselves into situations that we would sin. It is almost as bad as committing the act itself... Likewise, it is wrongful to entertain impure thoughts or desires because when we entertain those ideas the only reason we retain ourselves from doing so is circumstance, if God where to change those circumstances would we not therefore act upon them if we are entertaining them? If a person is using artificial birth control for no reason other than for birth control I feel that the intention has lived its course, even though the gravity of the sin I suppose could be argued. But using the same thought process could I not then open a porn site onto my computer and even though being confronted by such images and ideas not be tempted would I be committing a sin? Also contraceptives can mess up a woman’s body, for example I had a Youth Director at my parish whom was Protestant then converted to the Church and couldn’t conceive for the life of her. She was becoming frantic and it was becoming very sad, listing to her say, “I’m dying in the process of having a baby and there are mothers throwing their children into garbage cans.” So needless to say medically it makes more sense to abstain and I think that the parents need to understand the Church’s position concerning contraceptives. Edited February 13, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1193260' date='Feb 13 2007, 01:39 AM'] Why don't you enlighten me o wise one? [/quote]Now you're talking! Next time, capitalize 'Wise One'. It makes me seem taller. [quote]It wouldn't much matter my point has more to do with the fact it is not right to admit to something you are innocent of. Ah yes but He never admitted to being a sinner, because He wasn't. And in this case of the girl is innocent of the sin she is being accused of. [/quote]Enlightenment: You have no point. She is not admitting to ANYTHING other than being obedient to her Mom. You don't know all the circumstances and thoughts of the parents. Whether her parents are right or wrong, her taking the Pill is morally neutral if she is not having sex, her taking the Pill is morally positive if she is obeying her parents and not having sex. Besides, who is she admitting anything to anyways? People don't walk around with the Birth Control package pinned to their sleeve. She doesn't even need to carry it in her purse. You and Catholicat need to find something else to 'condemn' her or her parents with. There is no sin in taking hormones that are not contraceptive if she is obstaining from sex, in obedience to her parents. Since you both claim to be RCatholic, please provide some sort of RCChurch documentation that says it is evil to take the Pill if you are not having sex, have no intention of having sex, and are a minor under the authority of your parent. I'll be waiting for you'all to Enlighten me. Edited February 13, 2007 by Anomaly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 The girl is not sinning by being obedient, but her mother is clearly sinning by her action. What does the girl's father think of this? Does he know? Do they both know the long term effects of dumping chemicals into a child? The girl has the right to privacy and to talk to her doctor without her mother present, and refuse to take the pill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Also, if the girl is 15 and hasn't yet had her period it would seem that a visit to the doctor is in order as most girls get it at a much younger age. She may just be a late bloomer so to speak, but there also could be something else going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJRod55 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 [quote]her mom is going to make her take birth control because she doesn't trust her or something[/quote] This in itself says it all. The mother does not trust the daughter. That is a failing of 'the mother' and not the child. The mother must learn to trust and the daughter must give reason for trust. If this is established then the whole issue of contraception becomes mute. Spellchecked and posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 It would be wrong for girl to take the pills, she should fight for her innocents. Standing up for her innocents would be a good thing. Not standing up for her innocent would be bad. Would it be a sin not to do so? IDK, but it wouldnt be right. Do I condemn the girl? No, I blame the mother. To take the pills would be to admit a lie, is that a sin? IDK, but it is'nt right and we all know that. We know deep down where we admit it here or not, it would be wrong for the girl to just give up, "Ok ,mom, I'll take the pills, I'll do something unnatural to my body, I'll show you that you were right not to trust me, not a problem." Taking the pills would say that. Come on now we all agree or all should agree the girl should speak of her innocents! Tell her mother what she is asking of the daughter is a wrong and sinful thing. That is what the MOTHER is asking. She the mother is asking something sinful and wrong from her daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 In the argument of obedience one could argue that a parent can command a child to have an abortion, kill debtors, raise an army to over throw government, and the list goes on. While they are indeed accessory to the sin being committed for commanding it the person when they are able to discern right and wrong still doing wrong, they have committed sin. The theology of authority says that if someone vested with authority commands something contradictory to the Divine Law, Moral Law, Natural Law, Church Law, and even to a good extent Civil Law the person has no obligation to obey and moreover when it deals with the Divine and Moral Law they have the obligation to oppose such a command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1193256' date='Feb 12 2007, 10:32 PM']Well maybe thats a bit strong but the point is there. The Daughter should stand up for her [s]innocents[/s]![/quote] [b][color="#FF0000"]innocence[/b][/color] [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1193652' date='Feb 13 2007, 11:11 AM']It would be wrong for girl to take the pills, she should fight for her [s]innocents[/s]. Standing up for her [s]innocents[/s] would be a good thing. Not standing up for her [s]innocent[/s] would be bad. Would it be a sin not to do so? IDK, but it wouldnt be right. Do I condemn the girl? No, I blame the mother. Come on now we all agree or all should agree the girl should speak of her [s]innocents[/s]! Tell her mother what she is asking of the daughter is a wrong and sinful thing. That is what the MOTHER is asking.[/quote] [b][color="#FF0000"]innocence[/b][/color] : just trying to help you out : [quote name='The Little Way' post='1193098' date='Feb 12 2007, 08:39 PM']I just want to point out that regardless of the other issues of the side effects/risks of the pill and honoring one's parents (which I don't think applies here) that there is nothing inherently immoral in taking birth control if one is abstinent. If she is not having sex she is not contracepting and thus not contradicting Church teaching.[/quote] [quote name='The Little Way' post='1193121' date='Feb 12 2007, 08:53 PM']But again, I don't see how she's disobeying God's law. There was no indication that the girl is having or intends to have sex. [/quote] [quote name='The Little Way' post='1193185' date='Feb 12 2007, 09:20 PM']Ok, once again, I do not understand why the Pham thinks that the parents are commanding her to do something sinful? Their command might be sinful (because of the dangers involved and their understanding (or lack of) of Church teaching), but the girl simply taking the pill is not committing any sin whatsoever unless she is having sex.[/quote] i think TLW is very knowledgeable about this subject and has studied it far more than we have and that her words should carry some definite weight to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 [quote name='The Little Way' post='1193185' date='Feb 12 2007, 11:20 PM'] Ok, once again, I do not understand why the Pham thinks that the parents are commanding her to do something sinful? Their command might be sinful (because of the dangers involved and their understanding (or lack of) of Church teaching), but the girl simply taking the pill is not committing any sin whatsoever unless she is having sex. [/quote] I'm not going to read the whole thread here, but I agree with this ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Thank you all for your kind words. Knight of Christ, I agree that the girl should speak to her Mom about her desire to stay chaste and the foolishness of this request. I also agree as Prose suggested that Janet Smith's tape would be useful to help the Mom et al understand the dangers of contraception moral and physical. I understand your concern for the girl's innocence. She may be more tempted to engage in sexual activity if she believes her mother expects it (or feels she won't be able to control herself) or if she believes she's protected from pregnancy (clearly not the only risk of premarital sex). BUT, the fact remains that simply by taking the pill the girl commits no sin. Perhaps one of our PM Priests could confirm this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 [quote name='The Little Way' post='1193912' date='Feb 13 2007, 04:46 PM'] --- BUT, the fact remains that simply by taking the pill the girl commits no sin. Perhaps one of our PM Priests could confirm this? [/quote]I don't think that is likely or neccesary. The failure to provide any RC Church documents that says taking the pill for non-contraceptive purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 I'm sorry, could you clarify? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 (edited) [quote name='The Little Way' post='1194325' date='Feb 13 2007, 11:21 PM'] I'm sorry, could you clarify? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever! [/quote] Sorry. Likely or neccesary that a priest will provide a definite answer that will reslove the question. It will just be dismissed as opinion. Neither Cat or Knight have been able to cite RCChurch documents that definitively state that taking the Pill is morally wrong. As you have repeatedly pointed out (and they have been unable to disagree with except for their opinion), there is no sin occuring. Edited February 14, 2007 by Anomaly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pontifite 7 of 10 Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 [quote name='The Little Way' post='1193121' date='Feb 12 2007, 10:53 PM'] But again, I don't see how she's disobeying God's law. There was no indication that the girl is having or intends to have sex. [/quote] No, shes not sleeping with anyone. She talks about how stupid it is not to wait untill marrage so in that sence its okey. Thanks for making me feel better guys, I can't wait to share this with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Isn't the pill harmful anyway? This whole situation seems very wrong to me. The lack of trust coupled with someone being forced to take contraceptives by a future Catholic convert. I think a lot of prayer is in order. God bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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