James The Just

[dairygirl4u2c]

[url="http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/jamesleader.html#nt"]http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/jamesleader.html#nt[/url]

notice that james… and not peter was the bishop of jerusulum… where peter could have been
notice that in the acts… james is the one who made the final decisions despite peter being there
notice that eusebius, I think it was, give eminence to james

questions... comments... words of wisdom?

Edited February 12, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]Acts of the Apostles 15:6-15[/b]
"And the apostles and ancients assembled to consider of this matter. [u]And when there had been much disputing, [b]Peter, rising up, said to them[/b][/u]: Men, brethren, you know, that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, who knoweth the hearts, gave testimony, giving unto them the Holy Ghost, as well as to us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why tempt you God to put a yoke upon the necks of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also. [u][b]And all the multitude held their peace[/b][/u]; [u]and they heard Barnabas and Paul telling what great signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them[/u]. [u][b]And after they had held their peace[/b][/u], [u]James answered, saying: Men, brethren, hear me[/u]. [b][u]Simon hath related how God first visited to take of the Gentiles a people to his name[/u][/b]. And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written:"
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51015.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51015.htm[/url][/quote]Saint Paul the Apostle does not overrule the bishop whom he has no “small quarrel” with. Rather they decide to convoke a council in order to deliberate the correct course of action. This is the first recorded doctrinal dispute inside of the Sacred Scriptures. Then when we see that there has been “much disputing” the Bishops could not find a resolve to the doctrinal dispute. More importantly what they speak is not recorded during the council showing that what they said was not as important as what was to come.

Saint Peter the Apostle is then recorded rising up, but none other Bishops is said to rise up among the Bishops during the Council only Saint Peter, speaking of the salvation of all mankind. Then after this was said it says, “all the multitude held their peace” showing that it was only after Saint Peter speaks that the debate ends. There is no more argument or dispute over the doctrine which now we see Barnabas and Paul finally being recorded. For it is only after Saint Peter speaks that they voice the support of this defining of doctrine. Then if any more proof is felt needed we need to look no further other than Saint James the Apostle whom says, “Simon hath related how God first visited to take of the Gentiles a people to his name.” Saint James says that it is Saint Peter who makes the definition which Saint James also shows support for being the Bishop where the Council is taking place. So to claim that Saint James made the judgment is to contradict the Scriptures.[quote][b]Acts of the Apostles 11:13-18[/b]
"And he told us how he had seen an angel in his house, standing, and saying to him: [u]Send to Joppe, and call hither Simon, who is surnamed Peter, Who shall speak to thee words, whereby thou shalt be saved, and all thy house[/u]. And when I had begun to speak, the Holy Ghost fell upon them, as upon us also in the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said: John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. If then God gave them the same grace, as to us also who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ; who was I, that could withstand God? [u][b]Having heard these things, they held their peace[/b], and glorified God, saying: God then hath also to the Gentiles given repentance unto life[/u]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51011.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51011.htm[/url][/quote]Then Saint Peter the Apostle is found several chapters before the council has become a reality in the writings of Saint Luke the Apostle that Saint Peter is the first one to teach the salvation of the Gentiles and Jews alike. But the important part would be when Saint Peter finishes likewise as before (or rather later) he writes, “Having heard these things, they held their peace.” So Saint Peter spoke on a matter of doctrine to a community of Christians that were uncertain about the salvation of gentiles but after Saint Peter speaks they believe firmly this doctrine that he proposed, the debate and uncertainty ends. Notice that the people praise God, just like Barnabas and Paul did during the Council, after Saint Peter speaks.[quote][b]Mark 3:4-5[/b]
"[u]And he saith to them: Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy[/u]? [u][b]But they held their peace[/b][/u]. [u]And looking round about on them with anger, being grieved for the blindness of their hearts[/u], he saith to the man: Stretch forth thy hand. And he stretched it forth: and his hand was restored unto him."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/48003.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/48003.htm[/url][/quote]Saint Mark the Evangelist writes that the scribes and Pharisees approached our Blessed Lord questioning his actions. He then speaks to them a few words of which they “held their peace” at the words of our Blessed Lord for as Saint Mark writes, “grieved for the blindness of their hearts.” So among the Apostles the phrase “holding peace” is indeed making a doctrinal statement or making a very clear point that is not being refuted. [quote][b]Luke 14:3-6[/b]
"[u]And Jesus answering, spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying: Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day[/u]?[b] [u]But they held their peace[/u][/b]. But he taking him, healed him, and sent him away. And answering them, he said: Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fall into a pit, and will not immediately draw him out, on the sabbath day? [u][b]And they could not answer him to these things[/b][/u]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49014.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49014.htm[/url][/quote]Likewise Saint Luke the Apostle, whom wrote Acts of the Apostles writes the same phrase again that we later find on being applied to Saint Peter the Apostle. So we know that our Blessed Lord makes a clear statement that they cannot refute for they know it to be true of which our Blessed Lord is making a judgment over. If we refute the judgment of Saint Peter we twice over refute the judgment here of our Blessed Lord. Regardless the phrase is clearly speaking of a judgment and moreover as pointed out before even Saint James speaks that it is Saint Peter whom defines the doctrine.[quote][b]Acts of the Apostles 15:19[/b]
"For which cause I judge that they, who from among the Gentiles are converted to God, are not to be disquieted."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51015.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51015.htm[/url][/quote]This single phrase is used in the attempts to rebuttal a whole lot of scripture, but when we look into the very verse itself we find that it is not a “universal judgment” for look at the words. “For which cause I judge”, this does not speak as the Church universal but rather from the throne that Saint James sits upon being the Bishop of the region that the council was being held. This tradition still holds true when a Catholic Council makes a definition the local Bishop will stand up and make a speech. So this is referring only to a personal judgment rather than the judgment of the Church that Saint Peter so clearly made.

Regardless the supremacy and primacy of the Roman Bishop is seen throughout the writings of the Church Fathers and is even found in the Sacred Scriptures themselves. Of which we could go into if the discussion so moved in that direction...

[Mateo el Feo]

Let me see if I can get this right. The five Churches of early Christendom:
1) Rome. First patriarch: St. Peter
2) Alexandria. First patriarch: St. Mark
3) Antioch. First patriarch: St. Peter
4) Jerusalem. First patriarch: St. James the Just
5) Constantinople. First patriarch: St. Andrew

Some interesting links:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentarchy"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentarchy[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11549a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11549a.htm[/url]

[Socrates]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9610eaw.asp"]This article[/url] has some good information concerning this topic.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9610eaw.asp"]Peter and the Orthodox: A Reprise[/url]

[Mr.Cat]

Actually the website if you read around on it is atheistic and proposes that Christianity is false and harmful to human society. I ponder why someone would quote from this website.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1192007' date='Feb 11 2007, 11:34 PM']Actually the website if you read around on it is atheistic and proposes that Christianity is false and harmful to human society. I ponder why someone would quote from this website.[/quote]I think the purpose of the quote was to ask for the "Catholic response" to the website claims.

I personally think that the website's author's emotional tone doesn't serve his cause very well. But, his arguments are formed well enough to merit a proper response. I think it's easier to respond to his argumentation than a fundamentalist trying to tell me their latest theory about how I belond to a "Babylonian mystery religion", for example.