Altar Girls

[XIX]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1191534' date='Feb 11 2007, 01:12 PM']
+

If I remember correctly, men have preference (according to the documents) at the altar as altar boys. Thus, they are definitely my preference as well. Sadly, this has been ignored and abused.
[/quote]
Si.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1192305' date='Feb 12 2007, 10:08 AM']
If you have enough boys you don't need girl altarboys. However, I find girls make excellent readers.
[/quote]
Or cantors!

[philosophette]

[quote name='pyranima' post='1191384' date='Feb 11 2007, 02:27 AM']
part of this is a rant the other part is to get the opinion of others.

As a future priest(i hope) i like to have discussions about the the Liturgy and the function of roles in the liturgy, it seems to me that one of the most misunderstood roles is that of the alter BOY. ....

its about this time i start yelling and cursing and telling someone (in most cases a priest) to wake up and smell the theological roses. ....

“isn’t saying alter girls promote lesbianism a little extreme?”, that is a good question think it over. The Church is a woman… need i say more, for those less astute i will, the Church is female girls are… well female, 1 female dating 1 female = 2 females dating each other, whats another word for that… oh yes lesbianism thats right, and last i checked the Church frowned on same sex relations. a boy or a young man is DATING the Church.

ok so i am almost to the end of my rant. ok so i think i have made my case pretty clear lesbianism out alter boys in… so what do you think? i should mention that i do think there should be some kind of program set up to help young girls in their vocation, but the fact of the matter is women do not belong at the alter.
[/quote]

First of all I hope,[i] dearly hope, [/i] that are do not actually rant and scream at a priest. That is rather disrespectful, even if you do not agree with the way that he does things. He is far more educated than you are and just because you read someone's opinion about something or heard someone rant about it on the radio does not mean that you understand everything that is going on. If you show respect to the person you disagree with you will be received more willingly.

Second... how old are you?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1191480' date='Feb 11 2007, 10:44 AM']
so, how is JPII's allowance of altar girls suppose to be taken? I'm sure he wasn't all about this whole lesbian thing.
[/quote]

yeah, i'm not so sure serving is about dating the Church. if it was girl servers wouldnt be allowed. you are accusing JPII of being confused on sexual theology. No i'm not exaggerating, that is EXACTLY what you are doing. he wrote the "theology of the Body". He's one of the best theologians EVER on the topic of sex. give me a break. i know boys are preferred over girls...but it is NOT because boys are 'dating' the Church.


[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1191499' date='Feb 11 2007, 11:37 AM']
Personally I believe that female altar servers should be abolished because it is confusing to the faithful, hampers religious vocations to the Priesthood, and it relaxes the force to adopt males to be Altar Boys. For in most Parishes females are taken at the same level as males and even higher than males. In some areas the reason why females serve is because “their brother does it” or “I pay good money to this parish” which shouldn’t be the reasoning at all. Also by allowing girls it makes boys feel that they don’t have an obligation or a primacy to assist over girls, therefore the Church when seeking “happy helpers” girls will jump up leaving boys who could become future Priests in the past.
[/quote]

I also believe you are wrong here. I agree that it is confusing to the faithful, but i do NOT agree that it hampers religious vocations to the priesthood. boys do serve. girls do not prevent boys from serving. at my parish without girls we would have half as many servers, and probably not enough at every mass. they ARE necessary now, whether you think so or not. the parishes in my diocese are gigantic; many servers are needed. boys alone can't fill the gaps. ok. so boys are preferred. right now girls are needed. when we have more priests, and therefore smaller parishes maybe they won't be. but get used to it for now.

[Didymus]

you sayin I'm wrong there? It looks like you're reponding to me there with my quote. I was sayin the same thing you just said.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1194495' date='Feb 14 2007, 12:40 AM']
you sayin I'm wrong there? It looks like you're reponding to me there with my quote. I was sayin the same thing you just said.
[/quote]
: whoops, quoted the wrong person. sorry bout that.

[Didymus]

des koo. thats what I assumed

[Aloysius]

of course if you observe the application in any parish: generally the more girls start signing up the less boys want to sign up and the less they do. those that do sign up no longer see it as a tool of discernment for the priesthood because, well, there are girls there too... it seems like a natural stage and right for every lay man and woman to go through with no consideration of anything.

JPII's allowance was a very reluctant one. He once promised Mother Theresa (at least according to her, a pretty impeachable source of non-lies) that he would never allow it. He finally did allow it not because he thought it was a good idea; and not because he thought the symbolism even remotely taught the correct sexually symbolic meaning of the liturgy, but because everyone was already disobeying Rome on the issue and it was becoming such a point of contention that was driving so many people to grave sins of disobedience and the whole culture had completely forgotten what altar boys were anyway already that he figured: let's open this up to the decision of the bishops so that we no longer have this huge sign of division and people committing potentially grave sins in the Liturgy.

I don't think he was right to concede like this. But this is clearly what he did. The reluctance of it proves that he had no contention against this symbolic idea of the altar boy being the stage in the discernment of the priesthood akin to the stage of dating in the discernment of marriage.

[SJRod55]

Nah, sorry girls but Nah to the Alter Girls

[philosophette]

[quote name='Rod' post='1198313' date='Feb 17 2007, 04:16 PM']Nah, sorry girls but Nah to the Alter Girls[/quote]

What a compelling argument.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]"I agree that it is confusing to the faithful, but i do NOT agree that it hampers religious vocations to the priesthood."[/b][/quote][quote][b]Concerning the use of Female Altar Servers
From the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments[/b]
On July 27, 2001
"Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that [b][color="#FF0000"]such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations[/color][/b]."

“Therefore, in the event that Your Excellency found it opportune to authorize service of women at the altar, it would remain important to explain clearly to the faithful the nature of this innovation, lest confusion might be introduced, [b][color="#FF0000"]thereby hampering the development of priestly vocations[/color][/b].”
[url="http://www.adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html"]http://www.adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html[/url][/quote]This statment disagrees with the Church on this matter...[quote][b]"they ARE necessary now, whether you think so or not."[/b][/quote][quote][b]Code of Canon Law for the Latin Rite
Can. 230 §1[/b]. [b][u]Lay men [/u][/b]who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte. Nevertheless, the conferral of these ministries does not grant them the right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.
[b]§2[/b]. Lay persons can [b][color="#FF0000"]fulfill the function of lector in liturgical actions [u]by temporary designation[/u][/color][/b]. All lay persons can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.
[b]§3[/b]. [u]When the need of the Church [b]warrants it and ministers are lacking[/b][/u], lay persons, even if they are not lectors or acolytes, can also supply certain of their duties, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside offer liturgical prayers, to confer baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion, according to the prescripts of the law.
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PV.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PV.HTM[/url][/quote]Code of Canon law again disagrees with this statement...

Normally there are far more than enough boys to provide enough Altar Boys for any Mass being said throughout the day. I think to state that there are not enough males is to state that there are not enough parents “forcing” their children or there are not enough children going out of their way to become servers. All the time I went to my Church I was never once asked to be an Altar Boy, shows how much someone searched. So I strongly disagree that there are not enough or that it is required.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[fin-sta]

My church only has one girl alter server. We have a whole bunch of guys who are willing to serve. Plus the girl server only serves when needed.(In really big masses.)

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

UGHHHHHHHH

i have to say, this board has really shown how bad my diocese is compared to many others haha.

Girl altar boys (altar boyesses) are much more common at all of the many churches i have attended here. Not quite sure why. I remember seeing one in a cassock. that was weird haha

[Didymus]

c'mon dude, you dont have to call them that. its not cool to mock the issue

[pyranima]

[quote name='philosobrat' post='1194478' date='Feb 14 2007, 01:20 AM']First of all I hope,[i] dearly hope, [/i] that are do not actually rant and scream at a priest. That is rather disrespectful, even if you do not agree with the way that he does things. He is far more educated than you are and just because you read someone's opinion about something or heard someone rant about it on the radio does not mean that you understand everything that is going on. If you show respect to the person you disagree with you will be received more willingly.

Second... how old are you?[/quote]
I do not mean to be disrespectful to you when i say this however your statement is one of ignorance, as one of my favorite philosophers says (peter Kreeft) the higher your education the dumber you are. if you dont believe this statement i can refer you to several statistics. I do not mean disrespect as their are priests that i have met that are intelligent, however i have met many priests that are nothing more than marxist social workers. As a dinosaur i stick to the old code, however there is a time when certain rules do not apply proper. i believe civility is key when talking to anyone about anything however their comes a time when civility must end, just as their comes a time when violence is the only answer. (and for those who say violence never solved anything i know many Jews that would agree it fixed Hitler real good. there are also many many Iraq citizens that would agree it fixed Sadam {contra what the marxist media would tell you}). and to assume that someone with a degree is more educated is by far one of the most ignorant assumptions possible, as i am more than sure you may ask anyone in this forum who has been in high school that some of the dumbest people they have met have been teachers. My History professor (who was supposedly Catholic) had two masters he taught erroneous and Anti-Catholic history saying that "the Catholic church did not translate the bible into the vernacular so that the common people could not read it" do i really need to explain the magnitude of the error(and there were many more.) I may not have a degree however i am very well read, i read Romeo and Juliet in 7th grade, Bertrand Russel by 18, and several of Nietzsches major works by 19. I had written countless philosophical papers by then as well, i only say this to inform you that 1 just because someone is older than someone else does not make them more intelligent and 2 just because someone has a degree means nothing, in todays world degrees are not worth the paper they are written on(Tradesmen get paid better wages than people with degrees anyway). And to boot my area of "expertise" is Philosophy and religion as well as fundamental structure of language(which with my dyslexia is not easy)



The fact is Priests who allow female altar servers fail to understand the function of altar servers.

and to answer your final question i am 22

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]I do not mean to be disrespectful to you when i say this however your statement is one of ignorance, as one of my favorite philosophers says (peter Kreeft) the higher your education the dumber you are. if you dont believe this statement i can refer you to several statistics.[/quote]

That's the biggest oxymoron I've ever read. Statistics is the only branch of science where people can use the exact same source to prove the opposite idea. Given that people who devote large portions of their time to study tend to do so [i]because[/i] they have the intellectual aptitude for it, and given that common sense (unlike IQ) is not quantifiable, that argument cannot stand.

Secondly, the amount of 'respect' you show to a person is not based on their intelligence. I know that I am clever - my IQ score, which was formally measured by a psychologist, places me in the top 1% of the population. This means that it is very unlikely that the priests in my parish are more intelligent than I am. That doesn't matter, since intelligence is not what counts where God is concerned. Wisdom matters so much more. And the lynchpin of wisdom is humility. Priests have been called to follow God in a unique way. They are successors to the apostles. They have spiritual authority over us. Therefore it doesn't matter if you're cleverer than the priest. It doesn't matter if you think his preaching style is poor. It doesn't matter if you can't warm to his personality. It doesn't matter if you 'think' that a priest resembles a Marxist social worker - it is not you who ordained him and certainly not you Who called him. (Capital 'w' for a reason there.) Priests have the the God-given ability to pronounce the words of absolution over you in the confessional and to provide you with the Body and Blood of Our Lord, so they deserve your respect. Even if they do permit girls to assist them at Mass.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous