Can't Work Or Play Well With Others

[SJRod55]

[quote]'Seems' is the operative word there, and it is heavily contingent on what you've seen, where you've been, and whom you know.[/quote]

I agree, I have a great many Muslim friends and they are genuine 'friends' I do not say that lightly. They know I am a Catholic and even when the row was on over the Pope's German lecture comments they were still 'my friends'. We often see the worst side of their religion and especially their fringe element. That is in great part to how the media skews the news and the reporting.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1192392' date='Feb 12 2007, 12:42 PM']
'Seems' is the operative word there, and it is heavily contingent on what you've seen, where you've been, and whom you know.
[/quote]


[quote name='Rod' post='1192395' date='Feb 12 2007, 12:48 PM']
I agree, I have a great many Muslim friends and they are genuine 'friends' I do not say that lightly. They know I am a Catholic and even when the row was on over the Pope's German lecture comments they were still 'my friends'. We often see the worst side of their religion and especially their fringe element. That is in great part to how the media skews the news and the reporting.
[/quote]

I work with many Muslims, all of whom are fine, upstanding people who just want to get on with their lives, which is great.

I'm open to correction, learning, etc. I guess it "seems" to me that Islam is a) a religion with a propensity to violence, and b) that moderate Muslims either aren't out there in large numbers or are afraid to express their views, which "seems" to correlate with "a."

The ironic thing about your experiences in Saudi Arabia, Catholic Anonymous, [i]is that all the freedoms you'd expect as a Westerner were only available to you in your compound.[/i] If you were a "regular" Saudi, forget it, and if you were out of your compound, ditto.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1192279' date='Feb 12 2007, 06:15 AM']I don't necessarily believe what the media tells me. I believe what I saw when I was travelling through the West Bank. I believe the Arab Christians who invited us into their homes and talked to us about what has been done to them...by the Israeli army. I'm not just talking about Arab Christians in the West Bank here, but Arab Christians who live in Jerusalem - under strict Israeli governance. In Israel you do not get a good deal if you are an Arab. Full stop. I highly recommend Susan Nathan's book [url="http://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Israel-Journey-Across/dp/0385514565/sr=8-1/qid=1171274305/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7640696-5674415?ie=UTF8&s=books"][i]The Other Side of Israel[/i] [/url] if you want to know more. It's the best thing I've ever read on the topic.[/quote]While the Israeli's aren't saints, Muslim majorities in both secular and theocratic countries are worse in their treatment of Christian minorities. If it's not the government's use of law to oppress Christians, it's the mob (e.g. think of the treatment of Egyptian Copts, Iraqi Christians, Palestinian Christians).

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1192279' date='Feb 12 2007, 06:15 AM']God must have been helping me during my nineteen years in Saudi Arabia then. I consider it my home.[/quote]The fact remains that the kingdom of Saudi Arabia believes that it is [u]not[/u] your home. As you know, you would have had no chance of becoming a citizen (i.e. really making it your "home"), with the possible exception of converting and marrying a native. To be fair, many non-Gulf Arab Muslims are also treated as second class, never given citizenship. One of my Palestinian Muslim friends was basically kicked out of Kuwait, his lifelong "home", when he turned 18.

Which gets to my next point. I think the best hope for a moderate Islam that "plays well with others" lies in those Muslims--either ethnic or religious minorities--who have been victimized by other Muslims (whether by mobs or actual government). For example:
1) Non-gulf Muslims who are in the Gulf are treated as second class citizens.
2) Kurds, while they have been oppressed by secular governments (Turkey, Iraq), they've also been oppressed by Iran.
3) Shiites in the Gulf, under Sunni governments.

[MissScripture]

I would just like to point out that there is no Apostolic Nuncio in Saudi Arabia, because he would not be able to wear a cross there without being put in jail.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1192549' date='Feb 12 2007, 03:32 PM']
I would just like to point out that there is no Apostolic Nuncio in Saudi Arabia, because he would not be able to wear a cross there without being put in jail.
[/quote]

That's what I'M talking about!

Going back to my original question, what do the Catechism and Dominus Iesus have to say, in this case, about Islam? I'm guessing that the basic position is, no one can knowingly / volitionally / consciously reject Jesus and be saved -- is that a fair statement? In that context, is it that Muslims who don't [i]consciously[/i] reject Jesus have a "better chance" of being saved than, say, an Aztec human sacrificer?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1192279' date='Feb 12 2007, 06:15 AM']
Socrates, the words Jews and Christians, which appear in square brackets, do not appear in that verse of the Qur'an. They have been added by a commentator. Take a look at these three differing translations:

[b]Marmaduke Pickthall:[/b] Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

[b]Yusuf Ali:[/b] Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

[b]Shakir:[/b] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

As you can see, there are varying (and significant) nuances of translation that affect the reader's perception of what is going on, especially in the Shakir. I know there's an even greater difference in the Bewley translation, but unfortunately I've mislaid my copy and can't remember it word-for-word.

I've just attempted to make my own translation of that verse, but got stuck at Diyn ul-Haq, which Pickthall has rendered as 'the Religion of Truth'. [i]Diyn[/i] is an interesting word. I am confident in my ability to use it in a sentence; I am not confident of my ability to translate it. Qur'anic translation (let alone interpretation) is incredibly difficult. This is why I get increasingly tired when people whose knowledge of Islam comes almost entirely from the likes of Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes (known affectionately as 'Leaky Pipes' in Muslim circles) think themselves qualified to interpret and comment on surat that seasoned sheikhs would struggle with.

If you are sincerely interested in this topic, try looking at the information on [url="http://www.modernmuslima.com"]Modern Muslima[/url]. Saraji Umm Zaid's detailed[url="http://www.modernmuslima.com/islam.htm"]Islam A-Z[/url] is especially helpful, as is her selection of articles.
[/quote]
Yes, I am fully aware that the words in the square brackets, "Jews and Christians," were not in the original Koran text. That is what square brackets mean - they set apart commentary or clarification by an editor. In this case, they explain to the reader unfamiliar with Islam what is meant by "those to whom the Scriptures were given" (or the "People of the Book.") This phrase refers to those who were given the revelation of Scripture (the Old Testament law), but who refuse to accept Islam as its fulfillment, as Muhammed taught.

This much is quite clear from context in all of the translations given, and this is how this passage has traditionally been interpreteed by Muslims, as it is used as the reason for subduing Christians and Jews by force, and making them pay a heavy tribute in tax. This was standard practice for centuries of Muslim rule.

Your three translations all say the same thing - only the syntax varies.

They all say that those who have been given the Scriptures who refuse the "truth" of Islam are to be fought, subdued, and taxed.

I fail to see what is so difficult about understanding this passage.


Honestly, if many of the supposed Catholics on this board put half as much energy into defending their own Faith as they do defending the false religion of Islam, we'd see a true rebirth of the Catholic Faith!

Sadly, many seem more commited to political correctness.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1193084' date='Feb 12 2007, 11:30 PM']
Yes, I am fully aware that the words in the square brackets, "Jews and Christians," were not in the original Koran text. That is what square brackets mean - they set apart commentary or clarification by an editor. In this case, they explain to the reader unfamiliar with Islam what is meant by "those to whom the Scriptures were given" (or the "People of the Book.") This phrase refers to those who were given the revelation of Scripture (the Old Testament law), but who refuse to accept Islam as its fulfillment, as Muhammed taught.

This much is quite clear from context in all of the translations given, and this is how this passage has traditionally been interpreteed by Muslims, as it is used as the reason for subduing Christians and Jews by force, and making them pay a heavy tribute in tax. This was standard practice for centuries of Muslim rule.

Your three translations all say the same thing - only the syntax varies.

They all say that those who have been given the Scriptures who refuse the "truth" of Islam are to be fought, subdued, and taxed.

I fail to see what is so difficult about understanding this passage.
Honestly, if many of the supposed Catholics on this board put half as much energy into defending their own Faith as they do defending the false religion of Islam, we'd see a true rebirth of the Catholic Faith!

Sadly, many seem more commited to political correctness.
[/quote]

The bottom line: compulsion which often expresses itself as violence is a core principle of Islam.

Any takers on what the CCC or Dominus Iesus says about Islam?