Can't Work Or Play Well With Others

[kenrockthefirst]

Obviously, the title of this topic is contentious. But I just read about the clash between Muslims and Israeli police in Jerusalem over construction near the Dome of the Rock / Temple Mount. Muslims are ostensibly concerned that said construction will damage the foundation of the mosque.

The above is a long prelude to a question. I believe that the catechism teaches that Islam, along with Judaism, and, of course, Christianity, is an Abrahamic religion, and therefore somehow on par with Christianity, although not "as true" as Christianity. Is my understanding of what the catechism sets out correct? What does Dominus Iesus have to say? Here's the thing: while Christianity is obviously the fulfillment of the promises made by God to Israel, in what way is Islam anything other than a distortion of both Judaism and Christianity? I'll go so far as to assert that Islam is the Devil's religion, not in the sense that its followers are Satanic - although clearly it is a religion that can easily be used toward Satanic ends - but in that it is a distortion, a mockery of the Truth in order to deceive and lead people away from the Truth.

So, getting back to my original point, why is it OK for Muslims to convert the Haggia Sophia into a mosque, or to torch churches in the Palestinian territories, but not to have the Dome of the Rock be bulldozed?

Your thoughts?

[SJRod55]

[quote]I love all religions, but I am in love with my own.[/quote]

Mother Teresa Quote

[Nathan]

kenrockthefirst wrote:

[b]I believe that the catechism teaches that Islam, along with Judaism, and, of course, Christianity, is an Abrahamic religion, and therefore somehow on par with Christianity, although not "as true" as Christianity. Is my understanding of what the catechism sets out correct?[/b]

Not quite. Being an Abrahamic religion does not make it "on par" with Christianity. All religions contain truths, and Islam is no exception. Being an Abrahamic religion simply means that Islam is closer to the truth than most (closer, for instance, than Hinduism or Taoism). Judaism would be even closer, Protestant Christianity closer still, and Orthodox Christianity the closest. But none of these come close enough to the full truth -- the Holy Catholic Christian faith, as given to us by Jesus Christ Himself and spread through His Apostles and their worthy successors (bishops) up to this day -- to be considered on par with it.

[b]Here's the thing: while Christianity is obviously the fulfillment of the promises made by God to Israel, in what way is Islam anything other than a distortion of both Judaism and Christianity? I'll go so far as to assert that Islam is the Devil's religion, not in the sense that its followers are Satanic - although clearly it is a religion that can easily be used toward Satanic ends - but in that it is a distortion, a mockery of the Truth in order to deceive and lead people away from the Truth.[/b]

That may or may not be true. But sometimes I think about the Reformation and Protestantism in the same way. What has the Protestant Reformation done but divide and confuse Christians and send them spiraling off in thousands of directions, preaching thousands of different versions of Christianity? Might Satan be behind such a damaging state of affairs? Perhaps so.

[b]So, getting back to my original point, why is it OK for Muslims to convert the Haggia Sophia into a mosque, or to torch churches in the Palestinian territories, but not to have the Dome of the Rock be bulldozed?[/b]

It isn't OK.

Edited February 10, 2007 by Nathan

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]But I just read about the clash between Muslims and Israeli police in Jerusalem over construction near the Dome of the Rock / Temple Mount. Muslims are ostensibly concerned that said construction will damage the foundation of the mosque.[/quote]

Firstly, you must remember where all this is taking place. The Israeli authorities have an appalling human rights record where Israeli Arabs and Palestinians are concerned. And I mean appalling. It is not just a question of Muslim versus Jew - Arab Christians are also suffering terribly over there. To a lesser extent, so are the Mizrahim (Jews who are not of European or American descent). The arbritrary (and illegal) bulldozing of Arab homes and mosques is commonplace, as are more subtle forms of damage (such as the Jewish National Fund's aggressive forestation programmes, designed to prevent Arab farmers from tending their land). It may seem outrageous that the Muslims are fussing over construction near the Dome of the Rock, but their concerns could be legitimate. Both Muslim and Christian Arabs have had to put up with a lot. I never knew quite how much until I visited Bethlehem and Nazareth and saw for myself. You have to put this in context.

[Mercy me]

It is my understanding from my friends that the human rights issues of Christians in Palestine are having are coming from the Palestinian Muslim's side. The media only quotes the Palestinian Muslims not the Christians. Be critical of what you read from over there. Maniplating the media is very high on the agenda of Hamas.

[KnightofChrist]

The question to ask ourself is if we had the chose and we had to choose. As a Christian would we rather be drop off in Hamas or Hamas like group controlled land, or Israeli controlled land?

[SJRod55]

[quote]The media only quotes the Palestinian Muslims not the Christians. Be critical of what you read from over there. Maniplating the media is very high on the agenda of Hamas.[/quote]

The media world wide has a nasty habit of twisting the reality. One should always be careful, in this day with internet even more so.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1190315' date='Feb 9 2007, 09:37 PM']
Firstly, you must remember where all this is taking place. The Israeli authorities have an appalling human rights record where Israeli Arabs and Palestinians are concerned. And I mean appalling. It is not just a question of Muslim versus Jew - Arab Christians are also suffering terribly over there. To a lesser extent, so are the Mizrahim (Jews who are not of European or American descent). The arbritrary (and illegal) bulldozing of Arab homes and mosques is commonplace, as are more subtle forms of damage (such as the Jewish National Fund's aggressive forestation programmes, designed to prevent Arab farmers from tending their land). It may seem outrageous that the Muslims are fussing over construction near the Dome of the Rock, but their concerns could be legitimate. Both Muslim and Christian Arabs have had to put up with a lot. I never knew quite how much until I visited Bethlehem and Nazareth and saw for myself. You have to put this in context.
[/quote]

I'll grant that the Israelis have a few questions to answer vis-a-vis human rights. But it isn't just the Israelis. Muslims can't work or play well with others anywhere -- the Netherlands, Germany, France, the UK, Russia, India. They can't get along with anyone, Christian, Jew or Hindu. Whereever they're a minority, they're sullen and resentful, "put upon," "misunderstood;" whereever they're a majority, God help you if you're not a Muslim.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Their perception of God is that He is not Love.

That's the entire problem in a nutshell.

[SJRod55]

[quote]Wherever they're a minority, they're sullen and resentful, "put upon," "misunderstood;" wherever they're a majority, God help you if you're not a Muslim.[/quote]

Unfortunately this not only applies to Muslims. Across Africa you see terrible situations because one group is the majority whilst another the minority. They are not Muslims nor Christian per say. Look at Rwanda and the atrocities that occurred there between the Tutus and the Hutus. Across the world this 'majority rules' theory with respect to ethnic origins seems strong and it takes education to empower the people to think outside the box and embrace those who are in the minority.

'The Meek shalt inherit the Earth' - if only I could be here to see it.

Edited February 11, 2007 by Rod

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Rod' post='1191656' date='Feb 11 2007, 03:15 PM']
Unfortunately this not only applies to Muslims. Across Africa you see terrible situations because one group is the majority whilst another the minority. They are not Muslims nor Christian per say. Look at Rwanda and the atrocities that occurred there between the Tutus and the Hutus. Across the world this 'majority rules' theory with respect to ethnic origins seems strong and it takes education to empower the people to think outside the box and embrace those who are in the minority.

'The Meek shalt inherit the Earth' - if only I could be here to see it.
[/quote]
[url="http://jihadwatch.org/"]http://jihadwatch.org/[/url]

[Socrates]

Islam is far from a "religion of peace," as both its history through the centuries, and the teachings of the Koran itself reveal.

The following is taken from one of my previous posts on this topic:


Mohammed says in the Qu'ran to the Christians and Jews (claiming to speak for Allah):
[quote]You to whom the Scriptures were given! Believe in what we have revealed, confirming your own Scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward, or lay our Curse upon you.[/quote](Qu'ran 4:47)

He later commands Muslims:
[quote]Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians] as beleive not in God . . who do not forbid what God and HIs Apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true faith until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.[/quote](Qu'ran 9:29)

Under Islamic law, "people of the book" (Jews and Christians) were allowed to live as a kind of second-class citizens, and pay an exhorborant poll tax (the jizya).

Christians were not allowed to attempt to convert Muslims, and conversion to Christianity by a Muslim was a crime punishable by death.

In the first centuries of Islam, forcing a tribute of slaves from conquered Christians was not uncommon.

These are facts of history.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=61306&st=80"]Original Thread Here: "Top Ten Reasons Why Islam Is NOT a Religion of Peace"[/url].

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]It is my understanding from my friends that the human rights issues of Christians in Palestine are having are coming from the Palestinian Muslim's side. [/quote]

Which friends?

I don't necessarily believe what the media tells me. I believe what I saw when I was travelling through the West Bank. I believe the Arab Christians who invited us into their homes and talked to us about what has been done to them...by the Israeli army. I'm not just talking about Arab Christians in the West Bank here, but Arab Christians who live in Jerusalem - under strict Israeli governance. In Israel you do not get a good deal if you are an Arab. Full stop. I highly recommend Susan Nathan's book [url="http://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Israel-Journey-Across/dp/0385514565/sr=8-1/qid=1171274305/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7640696-5674415?ie=UTF8&s=books"][i]The Other Side of Israel[/i] [/url] if you want to know more. It's the best thing I've ever read on the topic.

[quote]Whereever they're a minority, they're sullen and resentful, "put upon," "misunderstood;" whereever they're a majority, God help you if you're not a Muslim.[/quote]

God must have been helping me during my nineteen years in Saudi Arabia then. I consider it my home.

[quote]Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians] as beleive not in God . . who do not forbid what God and HIs Apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true faith until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.[/quote]

Socrates, the words Jews and Christians, which appear in square brackets, do not appear in that verse of the Qur'an. They have been added by a commentator. Take a look at these three differing translations:

[b]Marmaduke Pickthall:[/b] Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

[b]Yusuf Ali:[/b] Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

[b]Shakir:[/b] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

As you can see, there are varying (and significant) nuances of translation that affect the reader's perception of what is going on, especially in the Shakir. I know there's an even greater difference in the Bewley translation, but unfortunately I've mislaid my copy and can't remember it word-for-word.

I've just attempted to make my own translation of that verse, but got stuck at Diyn ul-Haq, which Pickthall has rendered as 'the Religion of Truth'. [i]Diyn[/i] is an interesting word. I am confident in my ability to use it in a sentence; I am not confident of my ability to translate it. Qur'anic translation (let alone interpretation) is incredibly difficult. This is why I get increasingly tired when people whose knowledge of Islam comes almost entirely from the likes of Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes (known affectionately as 'Leaky Pipes' in Muslim circles) think themselves qualified to interpret and comment on surat that seasoned sheikhs would struggle with.

If you are sincerely interested in this topic, try looking at the information on [url="http://www.modernmuslima.com"]Modern Muslima[/url]. Saraji Umm Zaid's detailed[url="http://www.modernmuslima.com/islam.htm"]Islam A-Z[/url] is especially helpful, as is her selection of articles.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1192279' date='Feb 12 2007, 06:15 AM']God must have been helping me during my nineteen years in Saudi Arabia then. I consider it my home.[/quote]

So, how was it wearing a Cross in public, or evangelizing, or drinking, or, if you're a woman, driving, exposing your arms, exposing your head? Oh, wait, you can't do any of those things in Saudi Arabia.

Just look around the world: in Europe, Africa, the Mideast, Asia, Muslims just can't get along with anybody. Is everyone except them out of step? If you're a Turk of Armenian descent who dares question the Turkish version of the Armenian Genocide, watch out! If you're a Danish cartoonist who raises a question about the propensity of Muslims to violence, watch out! If you're a British author who satirizes the Koran, watch out!

Yes, there are Christian and Jewish extremists, but that's the point -- they're at the fringe. In Islam, violence seems to be a core principle.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]So, how was it wearing a Cross in public, or evangelizing, or drinking, or, if you're a woman, driving, exposing your arms, exposing your head? Oh, wait, you can't do any of those things in Saudi Arabia.[/quote]

In the vast majority of places it is not a problem to go out in public with your head uncovered (except when you go down with sunstroke). Arms are much more of a problem, for both men and for women, but I never felt the crushing weight of oppression on my shoulders just because I wore long sleeves when I was off the compound. (On the compound I could wear short sleeves if I felt the need to turn myself into a scarlet lobster in that sun.)

Here are a few examples of acceptable dress in different situations:

[img]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/parnassus/SobiaFriends.jpg[/img]

Friends of mine attending a 'mixed' wedding.

[img]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/parnassus/SobiaVicky.jpg[/img]

Me and some friends at my school.

[img]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/parnassus/n504851156_5389_4400.jpg[/img]

Outside a restaurant in Dhahran.

Drinking? If you want to drink, you can - the foreign compounds are awash with alcohol and the police act deaf and dumb on the subject where people from the West are concerned. It's a quietly acknowledged right of Westerners...if you want it, that is. Most Western expats do enjoy going to parties and the compound bars and restaurants, but it was never something I wanted to do.

Driving? You have at last got something right: women can't drive in Saudi Arabia. I didn't really feel the impact of this, as I had a driver and the same is true of the vast majority of women in Saudi Arabia - people get about with compound drivers (foreigners) or personal chauffeurs (Saudi ladies). Freedom of movement isn't restricted, although I believe that the excuses used by the government to prevent all women except the Bedouin (whom they can't really monitor) from driving the cars themselves are weak at best and farcical at worst. But as I can't drive anyway because of my disability, it's something I've had to get used to.

Evangelism? It is forbidden to preach publicly and non-Islamic books are not stocked in Saudi shops, but there's nothing to stop you from bringing in religious articles for your own personal use or sharing your faith with people of other religions. Thanks to the huge number of expatriates from all over the world who live and work in Saudi, the environment is extremely cosmopolitan and most people appreciate the opportunities this presents. Most of the Muslims I've known, from cafe owners to my best friends, have felt quite comfortable talking about their prayer and spirituality with me. It's a big part of their life and an exchange of beliefs is not something that is ever hampered, no matter what various media outlets may have encouraged you to believe.

If you want to stand on the street handing out tracts, it would be a different story. But is that really a Catholic tactic? It's not something I would even do in England. I never feel as though my Christianity is compromised in the Middle East just because I discuss faith over Turkish qawha while curled up on floor cushions in a friend's house instead of standing on the street corner and speaking at top volume - as one Pentecostal minister likes to do here in Cambridge.

[quote]Just look around the world: in Europe, Africa, the Mideast, Asia, Muslims just can't get along with anybody.[/quote]

I look at my own life first. Then I look at how newspapers present my life. Then I listen to people on Internet forums as they tell me what my life in the Middle East was like. For some reason, these sources don't always add up. I know which one I trust the most.

[quote]If you're a Turk of Armenian descent who dares question the Turkish version of the Armenian Genocide, watch out! [/quote]

Actually, the Turkish government is secular. It has imposed a headscarf ban similar to that seen in France, for example. The headscarf, which the secularist establishment sees as a symbol of political Islam, is forbidden in public offices and universities in Turkey. Challenges mounted by hijabi students have all been unsuccessful, and this is just one example in which Shar'iah has to bow to secularism. Turkey has been under secular governance for eighty-three years now, so there is no way that adherence to the Shar'iah can be implicated in the scandal of collective amnesia any more than adherence to Jewish halakhah can be implicated in Israel's refusal to acknowledge the Nakba.

[quote]If you're a British author who satirizes the Koran, watch out![/quote]

I presume you are referring to Salman Rushdie, who was the recipient of a fatwa given by Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini of Iran. That fatwa was of course subsequently declared invalid by a bevy of Saudi Arabian Islamic scholars but no one seems to have heard of this last part - presumably because very few people I've come across actually know what a fatwa is.

[quote]If you're a Danish cartoonist who raises a question about the propensity of Muslims to violence, watch out! [/quote]

The Danish affair is the only thing in that litany that I can agree with you on. It was blown out of all proportion and the consequences were ironic to say the least. But of the world's 1.1 billion Muslims, it is false to suggest for even one moment that all (or even a majority) were out there rioting and looting and attempting murder. There was also hot condemnation from across the Islamic spectrum, ranging from self-defined 'liberals' like Ziauddin Sardar to traditionalists such as Hedaya Hartford, who see themselves (correctly, in my opinion) as the Islamic mainstream. Have you read any books or articles by this lot? Hertford, Mattson, Umm Zaid, the Bewleys? Have you even heard of them as people?

[quote]In Islam, violence seems to be a core principle.[/quote]

'Seems' is the operative word there, and it is heavily contingent on what you've seen, where you've been, and whom you know.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous