I Want To Have A Debate - Please Read

[prose]

Basically I had a discussion with a friend the other day who is very new-agey and things. I wanted to see how some here would respond. Okay, so I am going to be him.

"Jesus was a good man, but not God"

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='prose' post='1188313' date='Feb 8 2007, 10:12 AM']
Basically I had a discussion with a friend the other day who is very new-agey and things. I wanted to see how some here would respond. Okay, so I am going to be him.

"Jesus was a good man, but not God"
[/quote]

Jesus couldn't have been just a good man but not God. He claimed to be the Son of God, that he was the one who was to come, one with the Father. Either he is who he said he is or he is the greatest con artist in the history of the world...which doesn't really make too much sense because it got him killed. Doesn't sound like it benefited him to me.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='prose' post='1188313' date='Feb 8 2007, 11:12 AM']
Basically I had a discussion with a friend the other day who is very new-agey and things. I wanted to see how some here would respond. Okay, so I am going to be him.

"Jesus was a good man, but not God"
[/quote]
AS CSLewis would tell you - he was either a liar, a lunatic or God.
He was never just "a good man".

[prose]

"but I don't believe the Bible is infallible. I think he was misquoted."

[ReinnieR]

this should be fun.

i love the topic of Divinity of Christ, unfortunately i have to go back to work.. i'll debate you this weekend.

[Mr.Cat]

Our Blessed Lord was foretold by God to the Jewish People and in many other ways the rest of the world, also He fits the description of who was to come. Then He exorcized demons, healed the sick, raised the dead, and performed other amazing acts in full view of the public in order that many may know of the acts. Further he is written of by those who were to be Christians, those to be Gnostics, and by the Pagans but his acts are not denied but they are attempted to be justified. For example, in the Scriptures when the Jews are confronted by the works He was performing never once do they deny it happen but rather they attempt to attribute it to demons or other acts. To what is written of Him if this was false neither His friends or enemies would have accepted it and would have easily rebutted it (most of all for the Jews). This although isn’t the case, the question of the writings did not emerge till hundreds of years later

Further the Apostles and Disciples would be unwilling to preach unto the entire world facing social rejection and even death. The Martyrs, whom are innumerable in the early church, would be unwilling to die for Christ and for the deaths they face it had to be divinely assisted. The Early Church also has existed and preserved by the grace of our Lord, if it were not then it would of fell to the persecution of Rome or the fall of the Roman Empire. It would have fallen to the Muslim invaders. At the advent of the Protestant Reformation (Deformation) it would have been destroyed or bowed to the commands and outrages of protesters against the Church.

Moreover we have Saints whom are extraordinary holy and do marvelous works. If they were simply motivated why do we not see the extraordinary works outside of the Catholic Church? Further, why do we not find the wonders that happen such as the incorrupt bodies of the Saints or visions such as Fatima were more than 70,000 people saw our Lord and the Blessed Virgin?

To attempt to explain all of this away we can come up with hundreds of theories but the one that is predominate is exactly what He taught us and what the Apostles taught, He was the true and living Son of God. The Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, while one can individually combat the theological proofs of the divinity of Christ in whole it is impossible to refute. The elephant is in the den and you can’t talk it away.

Edited February 8, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='prose' post='1188423' date='Feb 8 2007, 01:43 PM']
"but I don't believe the Bible is infallible. I think he was misquoted."
[/quote]

The Bible is the source material. If one doesn't believe the Bible, take it at face value, then one can believe anything one wants. It doesn't matter, make it up as you go along, believe whatever "feels good."

Of course, that's intellectually dishonest and, frankly, pointless.

[prose]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1188470' date='Feb 8 2007, 12:13 PM']
Our Blessed Lord was foretold by God to the Jewish People and in many other ways the rest of the world, also He fits the description of who was to come. Then He exorcized demons, healed the sick, raised the dead, and performed other amazing acts in full view of the public in order that many may know of the acts. Further he is written of by those who were to be Christians, those to be Gnostics, and by the Pagans but his acts are not denied but they are attempted to be justified. For example, in the Scriptures when the Jews are confronted by the works He was performing never once do they deny it happen but rather they attempt to attribute it to demons or other acts. To what is written of Him if this was false neither His friends or enemies would have accepted it and would have easily rebutted it (most of all for the Jews). This although isn’t the case, the question of the writings did not emerge till hundreds of years later

Further the Apostles and Disciples would be unwilling to preach unto the entire world facing social rejection and even death. The Martyrs, whom are innumerable in the early church, would be unwilling to die for Christ and for the deaths they face it had to be divinely assisted. The Early Church also has existed and preserved by the grace of our Lord, if it were not then it would of fell to the persecution of Rome or the fall of the Roman Empire. It would have fallen to the Muslim invaders. At the advent of the Protestant Reformation (Deformation) it would have been destroyed or bowed to the commands and outrages of protesters against the Church.

Moreover we have Saints whom are extraordinary holy and do marvelous works. If they were simply motivated why do we not see the extraordinary works outside of the Catholic Church? Further, why do we not find the wonders that happen such as the incorrupt bodies of the Saints or visions such as Fatima were more than 70,000 people saw our Lord and the Blessed Virgin?

To attempt to explain all of this away we can come up with hundreds of theories but the one that is predominate is exactly what He taught us and what the Apostles taught, He was the true and living Son of God. The Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, while one can individually combat the theological proofs of the divinity of Christ in whole it is impossible to refute. The elephant is in the den and you can’t talk it away.
[/quote]

This is great! I wish I could have some up with that!!

Another thing he says is "lots of people die or face for the Muslim faith, not to mention Jews. So does that mean they are correct?"


(I forgot to mention, I am trying to build up my conversations with this friend, so this may not be a centered debate, meaning staying on one topic). I am going to present some of his arguments. I know that some are pretty overdone, but Iwanted to see answers int his context. Thanks everyone!)

[Katholikos]

[quote name='prose' post='1188423' date='Feb 8 2007, 01:43 PM']
"but I don't believe the Bible is infallible. I think he was misquoted."
[/quote]The Bible is inerrant and infallible only in the hands of an inerrant and infallible interpreter -- the Catholic Church. Protestants don't have the Bible -- they have only part of it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='prose' post='1188423' date='Feb 8 2007, 01:43 PM']
"but I don't believe the Bible is infallible. I think he was misquoted."
[/quote]


I would say something along the lines "Prove it was misquoted what evidence do you have of this? Personal feeling? Because you heard somebody, or "they say this or that? Or real evidence? Name a real contradiction or something false in the Bible"

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1188851' date='Feb 8 2007, 06:55 PM']
The Bible is inerrant and infallible only in the hands of an inerrant and infallible interpreter -- the Catholic Church. Protestants don't have the Bible -- they have only part of it.
[/quote]

In the context you are speaking, minus the seven books it is more proper to say they don't have the full word of God. The scriptures never equate the phrase Word of God and Scripture. They are not interchangable because of the very problem you site. They lack oral tradition that holds it together. If someone has a correct passage but an incorrect meaning of it, it is quite clear they do not have the Word of God, even though they have the scripture. The scripture itself is not untrue. The lack of truth is in their mind and in their traditions rather than on the page of the book.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='prose' post='1188488' date='Feb 8 2007, 01:27 PM']
Another thing he says is "lots of people die or face for the Muslim faith, not to mention Jews. So does that mean they are correct?"
[/quote]
They do not die because they believe a man who claimed to be God. That is quite a claim, and to back it up with your life is quite a statement.

[Mr.Cat]

I am going to be responding much with Scripture for a reason, but this won’t be evident closer to the end of this post. Regardless, Scripture is always fun quoting because it looks all pretty and official when you quote it. That and I like making Protestants angry by quoting the Scriptures, but regardless lets begin. Its [b]a little long but I hope it helps[/b][u], I dont write this for my health... (coughs) muhahaha [quote][b]Matthew 5:10-12[/b]
"Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm[/url][/quote]Our Blessed Lord starts off telling us that we who suffer through for persecution’s sake we are blessed. It is only Christianity (Catholicism) that you find this idea that we are going to suffer greatly for following God. It is this idea that we are going to suffer and we are supposed to suffer with a smile. It is something rather alien to human nature all together. So when we start to talk about non-Catholics and non-Christians suffering and dying for their faith, this is something not expected or called for in their faith. As Catholics we are “called” by Holy Mother Church to die for our faith emotionally and mentally and when so allowed by our God, physically.

When the people heard this I am sure there were a few eyebrows raised because people till this point were looking for “relief” but now we are being told we are going to suffer! Show me that in another religious belief for all the others push this suffering away while we as Catholics embrace it. A Muslim may suffer for their faith but it is not designed in their belief system, it is something that isn’t expected. So it is more accidental but when it comes to Christians dying for their faith, it becomes something profound and holy.[quote][b]Luke 9:24[/b]
"For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it; for he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall save it."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49009.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49009.htm[/url][/quote]Then our Blessed Lord tell us that if we “save our life” we will lose it but if we “lose our life” for His sake we will save it. Isn’t this the inverse again of any “human religion” where instead of pushing away suffering and seeing earthly glory as heavenly blessing we are being told that we must lose everything to accept God. So as a Christian dying we are losing everything because this is what we are commanded to do. Although, again when a non-Christian dies it isn’t as much as following God but rather a great and horrific evil and thus the person is compensated.[quote][b]1 John 3:13[/b]
"Wonder not, brethren, if the world hate you."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/69003.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/69003.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]John 7:7[/b]
"The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth: because I give testimony of it, that the works thereof are evil."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50007.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50007.htm[/url][/quote]This message is really where it starts to become hard to bear the Cross. So if we get through life without dying or seriously suffering for our faith we will be “hated” because of our faith in Christ, for Christ will be hated who came to reveal the evils of man. This gospel is something to bear and it could only be followed in Divine Grace. So the fact that anyone gets along being hated as a Catholic is quite a story in of it self. Because when we look outside of the Church we see everyone complaining. Wiccans cry persecution because people think their a little weird but you wont hear a Catholic crying anything because on a daily biases we are told we are going to eternal flames and even in some cases hated purely out of us being Catholic.

I remember in free discussion a Wicca was telling me how Christians persecute her and I right away asked who the last person who killed her or anyone of her belief was. Don’t you rely that Christianity (Catholicism) was and still is being persecuted. In fact in some Asian nations it is apart of the governmental agenda to kill Catholics for they find them obstructive to society because of their message of love and peace. Most of all because they find it easy because of their passive nature; tell me the last time you heard this about another communtiy of belief?[quote][b]Matthew 5:43-45[/b]
"You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm[/url][/quote]Now the commandment is handed down that we cannot even take consolation in hatred of our enemy, those who persecute us, or cause harm to us. Rather we are called to love them and to pray for them. Then we are told that our God will give blessings to both the good and the bad or the just and unjust. This message reflects the mercy and justice of our God. For God is to judge us how we judge others then if we hate our enemies then while we are God’s enemy then why should He love us? This is a very powerful message of love that we are being commanded to “carry” out. We are to be hated, to suffer, and to die but during all of this we are to be joyful and love those whom inflict us with theses evils. This is a very unusual message and is really only native to Christianity.

When a non-Christian dies the people automatically start to hate those whom inflicted them and when it comes to non-Christians dealing with Catholics its normally just hatred. There is nothing but here it shows God wanting us to all just “get along” almost. So our death starts to transcend simply dying outside of the natural planning or dying because we are called to die for our faith but rather this is starting to become for Christians one of the ultimate proofs of that love and obedience to our Lord. The importance of this is that we are called to something higher where we love and forgive everyone without exception. This is certainly something that we don’t see outside of the Church.[quote][b]John 13:34[/b]
"A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50013.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50013.htm[/url][/quote]Then to magnify the purpose of this love that we are to share with all of humanity we look at what our Lord commands us here. We are not to simply love but to love as God loves us, this is remarkable that God is inviting us to share the Divine act of love to all of humanity regardless of who they are. So we die not as an evil spectacle but rather as a holy spectacle. God in doing this has changed the act of martyrdom into something incredibly holy the reason why in the early Church for every Christian they killed a hundred more seemed to popup. [quote][b]Matthew 10:38[/b]
"And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47010.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47010.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Luke 14:27[/b]
"And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49014.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49014.htm[/url][/quote]Now we see that not only is it transcending simply an evil act but becoming a holy act but rather all this suffering and even death is to be offered up through our Blessed Lord. So His death that redeems the world and we are to follow after Him to offer up our crosses through Him to the Triune Godhead.



We see now that to be Christian we have to suffer the crosses and we cannot escape them. To be Christian is to live a life with Christ which is a life of suffering. So to die for our faith is something completely different than for a non-Catholic or a non-Christian to die for their faith. So this is the first purpose of seeing all this scripture and lengthy explanation that the ideology and theology are totally different! So when we as Christians die it is a profession and determination of our faith in a manner that we will not find outside of the Church the reason why when a Christian dies for the faith it is something that we honor and people are inspired for.

But to if because other beliefs die for their communities of belief make them right, no! To explain briefly, simply because you die for something it doesn’t make it right for if this was true then Nazi Germany was right because there were Nazi soldiers and general who died for their beliefs. Moreover, we cannot take one puzzle piece of “dying for belief” as a proof because you need the whole puzzle.

You know I could copy down to the last church father the Catholic Church but I would not have the Catholic Church but because I do not have Apostolic Succession nor was I founded by Christ anything I put together really isn’t complete. People go out and make their own beliefs and manipulate their beliefs for their own means but we as Catholics die for something that was divinely ordained! ([i]see above[/i])

Moreover because other communities of belief are not persecuted as the Catholics are. As I was pondering returning to the Church being a cradle Catholic and then becoming atheist I asked God, “Why should I be Catholic? Everyone hates the Catholics!” Everyone here who is even jokingly seriously about the Catholic Faith knows exactly what I mean. No one is hated as the Catholics are for we profess the truth even though we are known for being welcoming, loving, and forgiving. This is true even though we give to the sick and hungry. So without sounding like “we have more people dying” it comes down to the point that simply dying for faith isn’t the whole story and the reason how Christians die for their faith is totally different than other beliefs.

Sorry for the length, I hope that helps...

Edited February 9, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Paddington]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1188470' date='Feb 8 2007, 04:43 PM']
Moreover we have Saints whom are extraordinary holy and do marvelous works. If they were simply motivated why do we not see the extraordinary works outside of the Catholic Church? [/quote]


We do.
BTW, I liked your post.

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1189031' date='Feb 9 2007, 12:28 AM']
That and I like making Protestants angry by quoting the Scriptures,
[/quote]

hmmm...

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1189031' date='Feb 9 2007, 12:28 AM']
Although, again when a non-Christian dies it isn’t as much as following God but rather a great and horrific evil and thus the person is compensated.[/quote]

Vague and false even by Catholic standards.


[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1189031' date='Feb 9 2007, 12:28 AM'] Because when we look outside of the Church we see everyone complaining.
you wont hear a Catholic crying anything [/quote]

Yes you do.

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1189031' date='Feb 9 2007, 12:28 AM']
No one is hated as the Catholics are for we profess the truth even though we are known for being welcoming, loving, and forgiving.
[/quote]

In the United States, I think fundies are hated more. In England too. I would just guess that Catholic countries don't have Catholics as leading the league in hate-receiving.

What about conservatives and liberals being hated so much in the United States by people who could care less about Catholicism?

Not that I didn't like your posts. I thought they were mostly good and enjoyed reading them. On that note, thanks.

[Mr.Cat]

“[u][b]Although, again when a non-Christian dies it isn’t as much as following God but rather a great and horrific evil and thus the person is compensated[/b][/u].” –
Most other communities of belief outside of Christianity do not have the same idealism of martyrdom. Take for example Buddhists whom died for their faith but it isn’t martyrdom but rather it is just something evil that happens. But if I recall correctly they do think they get something for that in means of “karma”. But regardless this was more of a connecting thought. In fact martyrdom in objective reality is not the same outside of the Catholic Church for one must die for Christ and His Church. Which I explained later on in the topic how the dying for the Catholic Faith is different than dying for a pagan faith.

"[b][u]Because when we look outside of the Church we see everyone complaining[/b][/u]. [u][b]Wiccans cry persecution because people think their a little weird but you wont hear a Catholic crying anything because on a daily biases we are told we are going to eternal flames and even in some cases hated purely out of us being Catholic[/b][/u]." -
The point is to highlight that Catholics suffer a lot on a daily biases, while indeed other beliefs do normally Catholics keep quite about it or at least are not bothered by it. There are cases where action does need to be taken but normally it is the people objecting to "under god" in the pledge or something else. Namely the point is to show how Catholics universally or at least generally bear the cross patiently. There are although some outside of the Church who bear their sufferings, but that isnt the point...

"[b][u]No one is hated as the Catholics are for we profess the truth even though we are known for being welcoming, loving, and forgiving[/u][/b]." -
I speak as a Catholic and from personal experience here. I think most Catholics who live their faith know how much the Catholic Church is hated by non-Christians, non-Catholics, and even Catholics themselves. Just in my family there is hatred or at least dislike of the Church. If I go to school and say I am a Catholic suddenly I am on trial but if I say I am “Christian” then everything is okay. Being Catholic changes the entire game. But you are starting to localize the statement I made; this is on a very broad spectrum reaching through “time and space.” This although I was thinking more clearly of Communist China that oppresses the Catholic Church at every turn and also several other Asian States. Because not all Catholics are "welcoming, loving, and forgiving" so I am speaking generally rather than particullarly...

I hope that helps

Edited February 9, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat