Regarding Anathemas

[Akalyte]

Why have the code of canon law and church laws regarding anathema's been watered down and some what done away with since vatican II? It's sort of like our defenses and discipline have dissapeared so the bad elements in the world could do as they will with the church. Could anyone answer this?

Edited February 15, 2007 by Lil Red

[Lil Red]

moved for discussion

[Mr.Cat]

I think one misunderstand the point of the Church declaring certain persons condemned for their choosing to dissent from the true doctrines of Christ. The purpose is not to cause harm to the person but rather to protect the faithful from error and to help the person in question see their error by publicly announcing such an error in teaching. For it would be very hard for us to always be right for we are not as Catholic faithful infallible but the Church indeed is, therefore it is the loving and helpful hand of Holy Mother Church that guides us. But when our protest and dissent becomes so sever that we are no longer heeding the words of the Sacred Scriptures, Sacred Councils, and Sacred Pastors then it is hard to get through to the person. We can see Anathemas being used in the Sacred Scriptures and the early scriptures, of which this accounts for early excommunication.

Anathemas, unless I am mistaken, under the old Code of Canon Law for the Latin rite proposed that specifically names that a person who knowingly and unrelentingly professes a doctrine condemned by the Church that they are to be automatically excommunicated. This concept still holds true in the current Code of Canon Law which I provided below which will first speak about the belief and obedience of the Catholic faithful to the Church then finally speaking of how those faithful who knowingly and willingly persist in heretical doctrine incur automatic excommunication. [quote][b]Code of Canon Law for the Latin Rite[/b]
[b]Can. 749 §1[/b]. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.
[b]§2[/b]. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.
[b]§3[/b]. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM[/url][/quote][quote][b]Code of Canon Law for the Latin Rite[/b]
[b]Can. 750 §1[/b]. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.
[b]§2[/b]. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church. ([i][b][color="#FF0000"]See Canons 751 and 1364[/color][/b][/i])
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM[/url][/quote][quote][b]Code of Canon Law for the Latin Rite[/b]
[b][color="#FF0000"]Can. 751[/b] Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.[/color]
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM[/url][/quote][quote][b]Code of Canon Law for the Latin Rite[/b]
[b]Can. 752 [/b] Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM[/url][/quote][quote][b]Code of Canon Law for the Latin Rite[/b]
Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM[/url][/quote][quote][b]Code of Canon Law for the Latin Rite[/b]
[b]Can. 754 [/b] All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM[/url][/quote][quote][b]Code of Canon Law for the Latin Rite[/b]
[b][color="#FF0000"]Can. 1364 §1[/b]. Without prejudice to the prescript of (can. 194 §1 n.2) an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in (can. 1336 §1 n.1,2, and 3.)[/color]
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM[/url][/quote]

Edited February 15, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[cmotherofpirl]

Now if they would actually start applying this.....

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1196252' date='Feb 15 2007, 03:17 PM']
Now if they would actually start applying this.....
[/quote]

who are they?

[catholic_apologetics]

I have a colleague who is currently silenced. Anathemas, excommunications, censorships, et.al. are all still part of the Church today. Since VII we see a new approach to some ecclesial groups, such as Protestants, who are not faulted for the sins of their fathers. This is often why, I think we think that laws are "watered down".

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='catholic_apologetics' post='1197242' date='Feb 16 2007, 06:48 PM']I have a colleague who is currently silenced. Anathemas, excommunications, censorships, et.al. are all still part of the Church today. Since VII we see a new approach to some ecclesial groups, such as Protestants, who are not faulted for the sins of their fathers. This is often why, I think we think that laws are "watered down".[/quote]

We do not see a new approach. The approach of Vatican II was the same approach as the 1930 years of Catholicism before it. Protstants have the same sins as their fathers: denying the Dogmata of the Holy Catholic Church.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1187449' date='Feb 7 2007, 12:18 PM']Why have the code of canon law and church laws regarding anathema's been watered down and some what done away with since vatican II? It's sort of like our defenses and discipline have dissapeared so the bad elements in the world could do as they will with the church. Could anyone answer this?[/quote]

There is a question about Vatican II I always wanted answered as well. The pre-Vatican II break away catholics blame VII for all the churches modern problems, liberalism, relativism, etc. And the liberals and modernist say VII lets them do what they want to do.

And speaking of relativism, and I pray this question doesn't get me in trouble but this idea that.. well ok lets say Bishop A says "Pro-choice politicians can not receive communion, to do so in wrong." yet Bishop B either says nothing or "We can not denie someone communion that is wrong."
And this is where my questions fit in with Akalyte, it would seem, with somethings sometimes maybe, maybe, some in the church let alot of things go more than they use to...

It would seem there is a great crisis in the Church to me... but I dont know...

[catholic_apologetics]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197258' date='Feb 16 2007, 09:07 PM']We do not see a new approach. The approach of Vatican II was the same approach as the 1930 years of Catholicism before it. Protstants have the same sins as their fathers: denying the Dogmata of the Holy Catholic Church.[/quote]

This is a vastly ignorant and erroneous statement. No one is held accountable for the actual sin of someone else. Being born into a Protestant family is not a sin. I see by your profile though that you are not Catholic. You will want to educate yourself by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this matter, which is the norm for understanding and teaching the Catholic faith today. As Catholics we are not given the ability to be in charge of picking and choosing what we believe, or being a "Magisterium" unto ourselves. (A magisterium is the teaching and ruling body of the Church made up of bishops in communion with the Pope, who is the successor of Peter. Only the Magisterium of the Catholic Church can give authentic interpretation to Scripture and Tradition).

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='catholic_apologetics' post='1197476' date='Feb 16 2007, 09:31 PM']This is a vastly ignorant and erroneous statement. No one is held accountable for the actual sin of someone else. Being born into a Protestant family is not a sin. I see by your profile though that you are not Catholic. You will want to educate yourself by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this matter, which is the norm for understanding and teaching the Catholic faith today. As Catholics we are not given the ability to be in charge of picking and choosing what we believe, or being a "Magisterium" unto ourselves. (A magisterium is the teaching and ruling body of the Church made up of bishops in communion with the Pope, who is the successor of Peter. Only the Magisterium of the Catholic Church can give authentic interpretation to Scripture and Tradition).[/quote]

It is not an erroneous statement. Most Protestants know about the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church, and thereby are formal heretics.

I am a Catholic in full communion with His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI who profess all Dogmata and Doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church. My "hello, I do not rep title" basically means that I am a "rad-trad" (though I would not now classify myself as such).
You should have taken a look at my signature which has a picture of St. Peter wearing the Papal Tiara (which, by the way, should be restored) on the left. On the opposite side a picture of His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, the current Vicar of Christ and Visible Head of our Holy Mother the Church. In the middle is the crest of the Fraternity of St. Peter, an orginisation in commmunion with His Holiness that I highly support which says the Traditional Latin Mass (I attend the Traditional Latin Mass every Sunday and Holyday by an indult of His Excellency). From it you should be able to infer that I attend an indult Traditional Latin Mass and believe Pope benedict to be the succesor of St. Peter.

I am by no means uncatechised: I have read and studied the entirety of [i]The Baltimore Catechism No. 3[/i] and [i]The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X[/i]. I have also read parts of [i]The Catechism of the Council of Trent[/i], [i]The Aquinas Catechism[/i] and [i]The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma[/i].

I completely understand that no Catholic can pick and choose in what Dogmata or Doctrines he believes, and would never attempt to deny any of the Church's Dogmata or Doctrines. I understand that the Magisterium is the Teaching Authority of the Church, and I very well know that only the Magisterium can interpret Scripture and Tradition.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197502' date='Feb 17 2007, 12:09 AM']It is not an erroneous statement. Most Protestants know about the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church, and thereby are formal heretics.[/quote]

Where do you come up with stuff?????
You have absolutely NO PROOF if protestants know or understand the teachings of the Catholic Church.
This is just your opinion used to justify your black/white views of Catholicism in general.
There is a huge difference between knowledge, understanding and application.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1197548' date='Feb 16 2007, 10:30 PM']Where do you come up with stuff?????
You have absolutely NO PROOF if protestants know or understand the teachings of the Catholic Church.
This is just your opinion used to justify your black/white views of Catholicism in general.
There is a huge difference between knowledge, understanding and application.[/quote]

Do most Protestants know that the Church believes in Transubstantiation? Yes. Do most Protestants know the Church believes in the Sacrament of Orders? Yes. Do most Protestants know the Church teaches Mary is the Mother of God? Yes. The list goes on...

[catholic_apologetics]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197502' date='Feb 17 2007, 12:09 AM']It is not an erroneous statement. Most Protestants know about the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church, and thereby are formal heretics.

I am a Catholic in full communion with His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI who profess all Dogmata and Doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church. My "hello, I do not rep title" basically means that I am a "rad-trad" (though I would not now classify myself as such).
You should have taken a look at my signature which has a picture of St. Peter wearing the Papal Tiara (which, by the way, should be restored) on the left. On the opposite side a picture of His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, the current Vicar of Christ and Visible Head of our Holy Mother the Church. In the middle is the crest of the Fraternity of St. Peter, an orginisation in commmunion with His Holiness that I highly support which says the Traditional Latin Mass (I attend the Traditional Latin Mass every Sunday and Holyday by an indult of His Excellency). From it you should be able to infer that I attend an indult Traditional Latin Mass and believe Pope benedict to be the succesor of St. Peter.

I am by no means uncatechised: I have read and studied the entirety of [i]The Baltimore Catechism No. 3[/i] and [i]The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X[/i]. I have also read parts of [i]The Catechism of the Council of Trent[/i], [i]The Aquinas Catechism[/i] and [i]The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma[/i].

I completely understand that no Catholic can pick and choose in what Dogmata or Doctrines he believes, and would never attempt to deny any of the Church's Dogmata or Doctrines. I understand that the Magisterium is the Teaching Authority of the Church, and I very well know that only the Magisterium can interpret Scripture and Tradition.[/quote]

And yet, you do not seem to know some of the most fundamental beliefs of the faith that you profess. Remember that the Church is not a stagnant organization, it is the living vibrant body of Christ. Your insistence that "Most Protestants know about the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church, and thereby are formal heretics" is also a most erroneous and ignorant statement. Simply knowing [b]of[/b] the Catholic Church and [b]knowing[/b] the Catholic Church are two vastly different understandings. In order for a Protestant to be a formal heretic they must be fully culpable to the sin, which most Protestants are not. Only the Church, not either of us, can make a declaration that anyone is a formal heretic.

Humility is a most excellent virtue.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]And yet, you do not seem to know some of the most fundamental beliefs of the faith that you profess. [/quote]They are contained in the Apostles Creed, Sacraments, Decalogue, and Lord's Prayer, all of which I have studied in the Catechism.

[quote]Remember that the Church is not a stagnant organization, it is the living vibrant body of Christ.[/quote]

I know full well of the Church:

[quote name='The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X']The Church in General

1 Q. What does the Ninth article: The Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, teach us?
A. The Ninth Article of the Creed teaches us that Jesus Christ founded a visible society on earth called the Catholic Church, and that all those who belong to this Church are in communion with one another.

2 Q. Why immediately after the article that treats of the Holy Ghost is mention made of the Catholic Church?
A. Immediately after the article that treats of the Holy Ghost mention is made of the Catholic Church to indicate that the Church's holiness comes from the Holy Ghost, who is the Author of all holiness.

3 Q. What does the word Church mean?
A. The word Church means a calling forth or assembly of many.

4 Q. Who has convoked or called us into the Church of Jesus Christ?
A. We have been called into the Church of Jesus Christ by a special grace of God, to the end, that by the light of faith and the observance of the divine law, we may render Him the worship due to Him, and attain eternal life.

5 Q. Where are the members of the Church to be found?
A. The members of the Church are found partly in heaven, forming the Church Triumphant; partly in purgatory, forming the Church Suffering; partly on earth, forming the Church Militant.

6 Q. Do these various parts of the Church constitute one sole Church?
A. Yes, these various parts of the Church constitute one sole Church and one sole body for they have the same Head, Jesus Christ, the same Spirit animating and uniting them, and the same end, eternal happiness, which some already enjoy and the rest hope for.

7 Q. To which part of the Church does this Ninth Article principally refer?
A. This Ninth Article of the Creed principally refers to the Church Militant, which is the Church we actually belong to.[/quote]

[quote]Your insistence that "Most Protestants know about the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church, and thereby are formal heretics" is also a most erroneous and ignorant statement. Simply knowing of the Catholic Church and knowing the Catholic Church are two vastly different understandings. In order for a Protestant to be a formal heretic they must be fully culpable to the sin, which most Protestants are not. Only the Church, not either of us, can make a declaration that anyone is a formal heretic. [/quote]You are wrong in your definition of formal heretic.

From the Cath. Encyc.:
[quote name='1917 Catholic Encyclopedia article 'Heresy'']I. CONNOTATION AND DEFINITION

The term heresy connotes, etymologically, both a choice and the thing chosen, the meaning being, however, narrowed to the selection of religious or political doctrines, adhesion to parties in Church or State.

Josephus applies the name (airesis) to the three religious sects prevalent in Judea since the Machabean period: the Sadducees, the Pharisees, the Essenes (Bel. Jud., II, viii, 1; Ant., XIII, v, 9). St. Paul is described to the Roman governor Felix as the leader of the heresy (aireseos) of the Nazarenes (Acts 24:5); the Jews in Rome say to the same Apostle: "Concerning this sect [airesoeos], we know that it is everywhere contradicted" (Acts 28:22). St. Justin (Dial., xviii, 108) uses airesis in the same sense. St. Peter (II, ii, 1) applies the term to Christian sects: "There shall be among you lying teachers who shall bring in sects of perdition [aireseis apoleias]". In later Greek, philosophers' schools, as well as religious sects, are "heresies".

[b]St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas".[/b] "The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are,therefore,two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. [b]The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material.[/b] [b][u]On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".[/u][/b]

Pertinacity, that is, obstinate adhesion to a particular tenet is required to make heresy formal. For as long as one remains willing to submit to the Church's decision he remains a Catholic Christian at heart and his wrong beliefs are only transient errors and fleeting opinions. Considering that the human intellect can assent only to truth, real or apparent, studied pertinacity, as distinct from wanton opposition, supposes a firm subjective conviction which may be sufficient to inform the conscience and create "good faith". Such firm convictions result either from circumstances over which the heretic has no control or from intellectual delinquencies in themselves more or less voluntary and imputable. A man born and nurtured in heretical surroundings may live and die without ever having a doubt as to the truth of his creed. On the other hand a born Catholic may allow himself to drift into whirls of anti-Catholic thought from which no doctrinal authority can rescue him, and where his mind becomes incrusted with convictions, or considerations sufficiently powerful to overlay his Catholic conscience. It is not for man, but for Him who searcheth the reins and heart, to sit in judgment on the guilt which attaches to an heretical conscience.[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

You are very good at cutting and pasting, it doesn't mean you actually understand them.