Pacifists

[Didymus]

No way am I leavin Chi-town for South dakota two days before the massacre of the Colts :

Edited February 2, 2007 by Didymus

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1183038' date='Feb 2 2007, 11:16 AM']
Sit down and have coffee together, silly.
[/quote]


[quote name='Didymus' post='1183041' date='Feb 2 2007, 11:20 AM']
No way am I leavin Chi-town for South dakota two days before the massacre of the Colts :
[/quote]
No, I meant, that's how you deal with people who hate us-- settle it over a nice Turkish coffee...

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]There's this thing. It's called diplomacy. Use it.[/quote]

They tried that one. Neville Chamberlain, the then-Prime Minister of Britain, went for talks with Hitler in the aftermath of the annexation of German Sudetenland. He stepped off the plane bearing Hitler's written assurance that there were no plans to invade non-German territories and saying, "I have brought back peace in our time." Chamberlain's diplomatic skills postponed the war for a bit and bought Britain a little more time to prepare, but ultimately they failed. Following Hitler's sudden pounce on Poland, there was nothing his successor (Churchill) could do but declare war. Britain had promised to protect the Poles. Ringing up Hitler with an, "I say, Adolf, this is a bit steep. You did promise to let the non-German chappies alone, old chap" would not have worked. To say that there was any diplomatic route left is to show a gross ignorance of history.

[quote]Many sects just hate us (America) just because we're American.[/quote]

That's not totally true. When viewed from a distance, America does not always look attractive. I sometimes think that Americans don't quite realise what a bad reputation for corporate greed, cultural insensitivity, and general ignorance that the USA has abroad - even in supposed 'civilised countries'. And after spending a few years in an American-run school in the Hejaz, I can understand some of those criticisms. We were lucky if we got further than Mexico in 'world geography'.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1183117' date='Feb 2 2007, 01:13 PM'] Ringing up Hitler with an, "I say, Adolf, this is a bit steep. You did promise to let the non-German chappies alone, old chap" [/quote]
Somehow I just have a very hard time hearing Churchill say that... (Very humorously put, btw)

[Groo the Wanderer]

Not a bleeding heart lib that likes to have my rear kicked every chance I get, no.

I pray for peace constantly and try to foster it whenever I can. However, I am not a whipping boy and have the right to defend myself if and when it is necessary. Same for my family.

Peace is NOT the mere absence of violence and conflict. Peace without justice is not peace.

Your definition of pacifist would mean:
1. no protests at abortion clinics
2. allowing the home invader to murder your children, rape your wife, and steal your brisket from the fridge without lifting a finger to stop him
3. allowing Hitler, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Ghengis Khan, Saladin, et al to march unimpeded

So, no...I am not a pacifist.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1183124' date='Feb 2 2007, 01:24 PM']
and steal your brisket from the fridge without lifting a finger to stop him
[/quote]


NO!!! not the corned beef!

[MissScripture]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1182996' date='Feb 2 2007, 10:06 AM']
If we hadn't screwed the after-math of the First World War they wouldn't have been a problem
[/quote]
WE didn't screw up the aftermath of WWI.

[avemaria40]

It doesn't matter what happened after WWI, the main thing is, if we didn't fight and only used diplomacy, many more people would have died and Europe would have lived under tyranny. Hitler had to be stopped, he killed so many innocent people. Also, diplomacy hasn't really worked in the Middle East. Fanaticism, not reason, is what drives these horrible wars and attacks on innocent people over there.

I am usually against violence, but I am not opposed to using deadly force against evil actions. My boyfriend has told me that if someone were to ever hurt me, he would defend me, fighting them if necessary. Reason does not work when someone is driven towards violence, lust, etc. Force is sometimes required and I'd rather see people fighting for what is right, then avoiding confrontation and allowing evil to prevail.

St. Joan of Arc lead soldiers into battle to free France of English oppressors and she was canonized as the patron of soldiers. So it seems to me that our God is not opposed to violence as long as it is for the right reasons.

[Resurrexi]

Hell no

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1183635' date='Feb 3 2007, 02:33 AM']
Hell no
[/quote]

Easy now kid.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

this thread is absolutely ridiculous.


The Just War Doctrine has been used and developed by the Church for over 1,000 years.
[quote]
The natural order conducive to peace among mortals demands that the power to declare and counsel war should be in the hands of those who hold the supreme authority.

[b]We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace.[/b][/quote]

-St. Augustine


i think you need to read the Catechism


[quote]Avoiding war

2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.105

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.107

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.108

2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."109

2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely. [/quote]



War is fought so we can return to True Peace with justice. Without war there would be much more horrible injustices in the world. You are the one deviating from the Teachings of Christ and his Church.

[beatty07]

Regarding Scriptural evidence, here's a few points.

1) John the Baptist told soldiers to not throw their weight around and extort. If pacifism is required, wouldn't he have told them? That's like telling a kidnapper that if he wanted to convert he'd have to be nice to his kidnappees and not charge too much ransom.

2) Jesus, likewise, spoke highly of Jairus' faith and worked a great miracle for him. He never told him to stop being a soldier.

3) Peter was reprimanded for using his sword in the Garden, and "those who live by the sword will die by it." We can't put that Scripture aside, but in interpreting it we have to remember this often-overlooked fact - that Peter was carrying a sword! I'll bet you don't generally picture the Apostles toting weapons (I don't) but there it is.

4) "Let him who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one." In reference to coming tribulation.

[Anomaly]

catholicinSD,
Has a Bishop or Priest ever told you that Pascifism is to be desired? You seem to be a faithful Catholic, but others here seem to show that Pascifism isn NOT allowd by Catholicsim.

[Red Knight]

I am a soldier.

I desire Peace and Justice in the world.

I firmly believe that there is no sector of society that wants peace more than the soldiers that fight and die to secure it.

We must live in this world, and it is fraught with injustice. Because of evil people and the things they do, war is a necessity.

I pray for the soldiers overseas. Not os much that they are physically unharmed, but that they are spiritually unharmed.

I ask you do the same.

[catholicinsd]

My grandmother has lost one son as a indirectly as a result of Veitnam. She what we a call a pacifist. I think if any of you would loose a child to war you'd have a different out-look on the issue.