rkwright Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Someone asked tonight 'Are angels part of the communion of saints?' and then later 'Are they part of the mystical body of Christ?' I was inclined to say 'no' but I was the only one in my group who felt this way. Anyone have an exact answer on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathoholic_anonymous Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 This is an interesting one. I think (but am not sure) that they are not part of the Mystical Body but [i]are[/i] a part of the Communion of Saints. I've always thought that the name 'Mystical Body' refers to those of us who have accepted Jesus' gift of redemption and have been washed clean in His blood. The angels in Heaven haven't sinned and don't need any redemption, so the name doesn't mean anything for them. Communion of Saints is different - that is a name for everyone who is part of Christ's Kingdom, human or angelic. Otherwise, why would we pray to St Michael and our guardian angels? I may be wrong. If you posted this in Transmundane Lane, perhaps one of the Phatmass priests would answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Demons are actually angels that have rejected God, so... (Stereotypical) Angels: Church Triumphant Demons: fallen angels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Angels are an office not a nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathoholic_anonymous Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 [quote]Angels are an office not a nature.[/quote] That makes no sense. That would make them mechanical, with no free will. It is true that their free will is radically different from ours, but they do have a certain ability to choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 [quote]Attendants at God's throne It is as messengers that they most often figure in the Bible, but, as St. Augustine, and after him St. Gregory, expresses it: [b]angelus est nomen officii [/b]("angel is the name of the office") and expresses neither their essential nature nor their essential function, viz.: that of attendants upon God's throne in that court of heaven of which Daniel has left us a vivid picture: I behold till thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days sat: His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like clean wool: His throne like flames of fire: the wheels of it like a burning fire. A swift stream of fire issued forth from before Him: thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and ten thousand times a hundred thousand stood before Him: the judgment sat and the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10; cf. also Psalm 96:7; Psalm 102:20; Isaiah 6, etc.) This function of the angelic host is expressed by the word "assistance" (Job 1:6; 2:1), and our Lord refers to it as their perpetual occupation (Matthew 18:10). More than once we are told of seven angels whose special function it is thus to "stand before God's throne" (Tobit 12:15; Revelation 8:2-5). The same thought may be intended by "the angel of His presence" (Isaiah 63:9) an expression which also occurs in the pseudo-epigraphical "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs". God's messengers to mankind But these glimpses of life beyond the veil are only occasional. The angels of the Bible generally appear in the role of God's messengers to mankind. They are His instruments by whom He communicates His will to men, and in Jacob's vision they are depicted as ascending and descending the ladder which stretches from earth to heaven while the Eternal Father gazes upon the wanderer below. It was an angel who found Agar in the wilderness (Genesis 16); angels drew Lot out of Sodom; an angel announces to Gideon that he is to save his people; an angel foretells the birth of Samson (Judges 13), and the angel Gabriel instructs Daniel (Dan., viii, 16), though he is not called an angel in either of these passages, but "the man Gabriel" (9:21). The same heavenly spirit announced the birth of St. John the Baptist and the Incarnation of the Redeemer, while tradition ascribes to him both the message to the shepherds (Luke 2:9), and the most glorious mission of all, that of strengthening the King of Angels in His Agony (Luke 22:43). The spiritual nature of the angels is manifested very clearly in the account which Zacharias gives of the revelations bestowed upon him by the ministry of an angel. The prophet depicts the angel as speaking "in him". He seems to imply that he was conscious of an interior voice which was not that of God but of His messenger. The Massoretic text, the Septuagint, and the Vulgate all agree in thus describing the communications made by the angel to the prophet. It is a pity that the "Revised Version" should, in apparent defiance of the above-named texts, obscure this trait by persistently giving the rendering: "the angel that talked with me: instead of "within me" (cf. Zechariah 1:9, 13, 14; 2:3; 4:5; 5:10). Such appearances of angels generally last only so long as the delivery of their message requires, but frequently their mission is prolonged, and they are represented as the constituted guardians of the nations at some particular crisis, e.g. during the Exodus (Exodus 14:19; Baruch 6:6). Similarly it is the common view of the Fathers that by "the prince of the Kingdom of the Persians" (Dan., x, 13; x, 21) we are to understand the angel to whom was entrusted the spiritual care of that kingdom, and we may perhaps see in the "man of Macedonia" who appeared to St. Paul at Troas, the guardian angel of that country (Acts 16:9). The Septuagint (Deuteronomy 32:8), has preserved for us a fragment of information on this head, though it is difficult to gauge its exact meaning: "When the Most High divided the nations, when He scattered the children of Adam, He established the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God". How large a part the ministry of angels played, not merely in Hebrew theology, but in the religious ideas of other nations as well, appears from the expression "like to an angel of God". It is three times used of David (2 Samuel 14:17, 20; 14:27) and once by Achis of Geth (1 Samuel 29:9). It is even applied by Esther to Assuerus (Esther 15:16), and St. Stephen's face is said to have looked "like the face of an angel" as he stood before the Sanhedrin (Acts 6:15). [/quote] Oh, and BTW, angels are not a part of the Communion of Saints. At least I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathoholic_anonymous Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 [quote]Angels are an office not a nature.[/quote] [quote]The spiritual nature of the angels is manifested very clearly in the account which Zacharias gives of the revelations bestowed upon him by the ministry of an angel.[/quote] Your source is conflicting. Where did you get that information from, anyway? [quote]Oh, and BTW, angels are not a part of the Communion of Saints. At least I don't think so.[/quote] In that case, why pray to Saint Michael? Or Saint Gabriel? Or our own guardian angels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJRod55 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 One of the things I like most about this forum is that we learn so much from each other. Thank you for the background. This is really interesting and educating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Great question, thanks! If angels are just an office, who holds this office? Human souls? I highly doubt that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 [quote name='prose' post='1183195' date='Feb 2 2007, 02:09 PM'] Great question, thanks! If angels are just an office, who holds this office? Human souls? I highly doubt that. [/quote] I was wondering that, too. Because angels existed before humans, didn't they? Is it the level of angel that is an office (i.e. archangel, cherubim, serephim) and myabe not the actual role of angel that is an office? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 hmm so no definative answers yet? STM, interesting article, but I'm not sure what your saying here. Either way I'm asking if the nature of the being that holds the office of angels are a part of the MBOC and communion of Saints. Catholic A - I can't make the jump you make; I don't see the connection that because we pray to them they are a part of the Communion of Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_angels Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 As to the whole an angel is an office not a title, this is most correct. To paraphrase Augustine, if one asks what an angel is, he is a spirit, i.e. an incorporeal being, and, by office an angel. So, referring to Satan, it would be more appropriate to understand that by "a fallen angel" one is referring to the fact that he "formerly" was a true angel, and now has that title only from his former glory. I would definitely include them in the communion of saints, but in a different manner than human saints. The "communion" means that we have a likeness, a sharing with them that extends beyond life and death, and goes forever. What is this likeness? It is that we both share in the image of God, we, in a temporal manner, they in a glorious manner. Likewise, we are not separated from them by any space or condition, just as we are united with all the world together in the Communion of Saints. How about the mystical body of Christ? Does the Apostle not say that there are many members with different functions, and do we not say of the Sacred Host, "He gave them the bread of angels to eat?" Surely then, just as we are brought into the Body of Christ being fed by his body, and just as we are made one by the unbounded communion of the blessed, are not the angels also fed by the presence of Christ, and furthered by that. Tell me if I'm wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 That article was from the Catholic Encyclopedia. I don't think angels are a part of the Communion of Saints becuase they were never human. I may, however, be incorrect. I would say you can pray to angels becuase they are in heaven with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Michael the ArchAngel is a Saint. Are not all Angels (not demons) saints? Yes, of course. If not why not? How can a Angel not be a saint? Again not talking about demons "angels." Saints are in the communion of Saints and if Angels are Saints and it would seem they are, so too would Angels since they are Saints. Every Angel we know by name is declared by the Church to be a Saint. As for the mystical body of Christ, who is the Bread of Angels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 [quote]Catechism of the Catholic Chruch 947. '[u]Since all the faithful form one body[/u], the good of each is communicated to the others...We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ since he is the head....Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments. As this Church is governed by one and the same spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund. 948. The term communion of the saints, therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta) and among holy persons (sancti). 956. The intercession of the Saints. Being more closely united to Christ, [b]those who dwell in Heaven[/b] fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness...[b]they do not cease to intercede to the Father for us[/b], as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus....so by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.[/quote] Angels are part of the Faithful, Angels dwell in heaven and Angels do not cease to intercede to the Father for us. There for they are in the CommUNION of the Saints Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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