M.SIGGA Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Pollster says U.S. Catholics see themselves as Americans first WASHINGTON (CNS) -- Catholics in the United States so strongly identify themselves first as Americans before they think of themselves as Catholics that the church is in danger of losing its identity, according to pollster John Zogby. Especially among younger people, religion plays an increasingly smaller part in how people think of themselves, Zogby told an audience Jan. 20 at The Catholic University of America. The tendency of Americans to identify themselves first by nationality means, for one thing, that the "Catholic vote" politicians have sought for generations is really nonexistent, he said. "There are Catholic sensitivities," such as defensiveness when someone insults the pope, he said. But when pollsters study voter data and find that a particular candidate got "X" percentage of Catholic votes, Zogby said those voters probably made their electoral choice for reasons having little or nothing to do with religious beliefs. "They're voting as veterans, as members of an ethnic group or a union, or according to the region they live in as their primary identity," he said. "Only secondarily, or maybe even (thirdly) do they vote as Catholics." Where should a Christian draw the line between Nationalism and the Church? I know in order to be a Jwitness, one must draw a definite line and never cross it - they are even foridden to say the Pledge of Allegence. Christian History has proven in the UK, the Third Reich, France, and the Netherlands that this can yeild really bad consequences for everybody over a period of time. Personally I think I might have been guilty of this sometimes. Can someone be truly American and Catholic at the same time? For all the Protestants out there, how about you guys too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 (edited) Catholic first, because being Catholic is all about being the best Christian you can be. There is only 1 God. You can respect the authority or 'good' of anything else, up until it impinges upon the honor due God. Edited January 22, 2004 by jasJis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 That issue was settled with Kennedy, back then there WAS a concern over this one. Now Catholics are just the same as everyone... ADDICTED to governmental handouts. TAXES and more taxes. The Democrats waste in on social programs, the Republicans on wars and the militiary industrial complex. No one EVER really reduces spending.... :sadder: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I consider myself Catholic first, Indian second, and American third. No one thinks of me as an American in this country, even though I was born and brought up here, because my parents are from India and my skin is brown. So maybe it's easier for me to be Catholic first b/c I don't really belong anywhere nationality-wise (Indians think of me as American and Americans think of me as Indian). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thicke Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 You've heard of "God and Country"? I think there is a reason why God is first. JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Catholic first, American second. Before turning to Catholicism, my Christianity was usually tied into my American heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Catholic first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 That issue was settled with Kennedy, back then there WAS a concern over this one. Now Catholics are just the same as everyone... ADDICTED to governmental handouts. TAXES and more taxes. The Democrats waste in on social programs, the Republicans on wars and the militiary industrial complex. No one EVER really reduces spending.... :sadder: *Some* Catholics are.... the ones that pay attention are not. :D God Bless, Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 God first, and part of that is in complete submission to the government - as long as it does not go against a command of God (Romans 13:1-5). They go hand in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 I'd like to add this to the original question, is there anything the Church can say against something politically or socially that you whole-heartedly believe in, that might make you re-examine your conscience? My purpose is that it's a natural reaction to say religion/faith first, but history has proven that politics and nationalism and socialism sometimes get intertwined with religion in mass numbers of people. Maybe an example will help you out: In New Orleans in the 1950s, intergration was an example of when the Church in America finally put it's foot down. The archbishop intergrated schools, pews, and altar rails despite the fact Jim Crow laws were still inacted and before the public schools could intergrate. The bishops who intergrated told the people it was sinful to be racist, and mass numbers of Catholic parents pulled their kids out of the Catholic schools anyway and refused to attend mass at churches with blacks. Some priests and religious weren't excused from the disobedience either. These were masses of people, not 2 or 3 or 20 or 50 or 100, but whole groups of 'faithful' people. This also happened with the Baptists, Methodists, and Episcopalians. Similar examples can be noted throughout western history in the Catholic Church, and across the Protestant denominations (Nazi Germany, Revolutionary France, Latin America, etc) This is an extreme example, but if the Church said tomorrow, that it was a sin to agree to pay taxes because American tax dollars fund abortions, would you all not pay taxes (even though taxes pay for everything in society)? Any other examples are welcome too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 This is an extreme example, but if the Church said tomorrow, that it was a sin to agree to pay taxes because American tax dollars fund abortions, would you all not pay taxes (even though taxes pay for everything in society)? If the Church said it was a sin, and the Church has the power to loose and bind, wouldn't we HAVE to not pay taxes? I suppose it would be better to go to jail than sin. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Interesting debate! :D I'd say I was Christian first. In the UK, Quakers have withheld their taxes because some of the money is used to fund the military. They want a change in the law so that people can choose that their tax is spent on education and hospitals rather than the military, so they are not arguing against paying taxes per se. Of course, since they break the law by not paying their taxes they are often given prison sentences. A reporter recently interviewed several young asian men born in the UK about how they viewed themselves, muslim or British, first, and they all without hesitation said muslim and that their alliegance to Islam was greater than their alliegance to any country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 This is an extreme example, but if the Church said tomorrow, that it was a sin to agree to pay taxes because American tax dollars fund abortions, would you all not pay taxes (even though taxes pay for everything in society)? You're right, MSIGGA, that is an extreme example! Scriptures seem to indicate that paying taxes was ok with Jesus, and the Roman emperor was a pretty evil guy, so I don't think you'll see the pope telling us it's sinful to pay our taxes...But it might be a good excuse to use to file for an extension!!! Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 That issue was settled with Kennedy, back then there WAS a concern over this one. And how did Kennedy settle it, do you remember? He assured the public that he would be an American FIRST, and a Catholic SECOND. Gotta love those Kennedy's.... Fortunately, he didn't then, and his family doesn't now, speak for this CATHOLIC FIRST American. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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