Guilt, Repentance And Regret

[Paddington]

This will be hard to phrase correctly.

Joe commits a sin and repents. Sin in the obvious way. Repent in the obvious way.

Bob commits a sin. In the willful and informed (obvious) way. And then decides to never do it again. He thinks it would be wrong to do in the future. BUT he thinks that sin was a necessary learning experience. He does not think he made the wrong decision at the time. And it was a grave sin.

Joe will do well in Confession.

How will Bob do in Confession? Is he even allowed to go? What if it was venial? Any other insights?

Thanks,
Paddington

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1179151' date='Jan 29 2007, 01:32 AM']


This will be hard to phrase correctly.

Joe commits a sin and repents. Sin in the obvious way. Repent in the obvious way.

Bob commits a sin. In the willful and informed (obvious) way. And then decides to never do it again. He thinks it would be wrong to do in the future. BUT he thinks that sin was a necessary learning experience. He does not think he made the wrong decision at the time. And it was a grave sin.

Joe will do well in Confession.

How will Bob do in Confession? Is he even allowed to go? What if it was venial? Any other insights?

Thanks,
Paddington
[/quote]
Does Bob know its a grave sin?
If Bob doesn't think its a sin but a learning experience he probably won't confess it. Since he didn't think it was wrong, he won't feel the need to repent for it.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1179151' date='Jan 29 2007, 01:32 AM']
Bob commits a sin. In the willful and informed (obvious) way. And then decides to never do it again. He thinks it would be wrong to do in the future. BUT he thinks that sin was a necessary learning experience. He does not think he made the wrong decision at the time. And it was a grave sin.
[/quote]
I don't understand this. You say it was an informed decision, but you say that he doesn't think he made the wrong decision. If it was a sin, and he was informed about it, then he willingly committed a sin. Thus, he must think it was the wrong decision...unless he thinks sinning isn't wrong, which also means that he wasn't informed (his conscience isn't properly educated).

If you're trying to say that committing a sin is okay, as long as you learn from it, then you're incorrect. Part of learning from it is learning how to deal with it when you do sin (recognizing that it was wrong and going to Confession) and putting steps in place to make sure you don't do it again. There are plenty of sins I've committed that I've learned from, but if I knew what I was doing, knew it was a sin, and did it anyway, then it was wrong. If I didn't know fully, then it may have been venial, but it was still wrong. If I didn't know at all, then it wasn't a sin, but it was still wrong in itself and I can still learn from it.

[Paddington]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1179423' date='Jan 29 2007, 06:00 PM']
Does Bob know its a grave sin?
If Bob doesn't think its a sin but a learning experience he probably won't confess it. Since he didn't think it was wrong, he won't feel the need to repent for it.
[/quote]

Hmm..you are messing with how I understand the confessional.
Or are you?

Umm, I was with the idea that you just go ahead and confess everything. And not mess with whether or not it was willful or informed.
If I go back to confession, I will have a hard enough time confessing them all with necessary details. I won't be able to decide what was willful and/or informed. Definitely not the first time back. He will hear everything! Priests aren't supposed to diagnose scrupulosity off of one session.

[quote name='Raphael' post='1179465' date='Jan 29 2007, 07:04 PM']
I don't understand this. You say it was an informed decision, but you say that he doesn't think he made the wrong decision. If it was a sin, and he was informed about it, then he willingly committed a sin. Thus, he must think it was the wrong decision...unless he thinks sinning isn't wrong, which also means that he wasn't informed (his conscience isn't properly educated).

If you're trying to say that committing a sin is okay, as long as you learn from it, then you're incorrect. Part of learning from it is learning how to deal with it when you do sin (recognizing that it was wrong and going to Confession) and putting steps in place to make sure you don't do it again. There are plenty of sins I've committed that I've learned from, but if I knew what I was doing, knew it was a sin, and did it anyway, then it was wrong. If I didn't know fully, then it may have been venial, but it was still wrong. If I didn't know at all, then it wasn't a sin, but it was still wrong in itself and I can still learn from it.
[/quote]

Raphael,

I am having a hard time understanding myself. But I am getting at something. Trust me.
I have a caricature of a guy who doesn't get drunk anymore. Throw in some other sins too. And to him, he thinks "oh, geez, golly, shucks, I sure was sowing my wild oats back then. But I can't do that now. Nope, I've got my wife to straighten me out. But I don't regret doing it. Shucks, that's what made me into who I am today! And I'm sooooo thankful for who I am today."

Now imagine that Mr. Caricature is a practicing Catholic. Is that okay?

I hope I'm getting something across. I'm honestly having a hard time understanding my own question. So, thanks for playing along.

Paddington

[magnificat]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1180133' date='Jan 30 2007, 02:13 AM']

I have a caricature of a guy who doesn't get drunk anymore. Throw in some other sins too. And to him, he thinks "oh, geez, golly, shucks, I sure was sowing my wild oats back then. But I can't do that now. Nope, I've got my wife to straighten me out. But I don't regret doing it. Shucks, that's what made me into who I am today! And I'm sooooo thankful for who I am today."

Now imagine that Mr. Caricature is a practicing Catholic. Is that okay?

[/quote]

I think it depends on if he knew at the time he was getting drunk & committing other sins whether he knew they were sins. If he genuinely didn't know they were, then he wouldn't have sinned at the point he did them.

If he knew and did them, then he would have sinned and would need to go to Confession, though the thought "I don't regret doing it" would seem to negate any contrition on his part which is one of the prerequsites to having your sin forgiven. So even if he resolves not to sin in the future, it wouldn't be okay for him to have that attitude as he still needs to have his prior sins forgiven.

[beatty07]

I'd be a little easier on him, unfortunately I can understand this pretty well. While saying "I'm glad I did that" definitely negates contrition, there's a long gray middle ground between that and true contrition. I'm talking about sins that we know were wrong. We know, in our heads, that we shouldn't have done them. We're even confident that given the chance to do it over, we would make good.

BUT something, deep down... just can't seem to bring itself to regret the action. Maybe, like mr. caricature, we are simply unable to distinguish the sin from the growth that God has wrought in us. Maybe it's just an old-fashioned case of imperfect contrition. There are people who have never known intimacy except by sinning... it'd be pretty hard for them to have complete regret for those sins. Or maybe someone's sin indirectly caused a great good to befall someone he loves, and he can't unwish that good.

I'm just saying that contrition is a complicated affair, and can't always be wholly captured by "sorry" and "not sorry." Before the Throne of Mercy, "a little sorry" is a start, especially if it includes "I wish I was more sorry." You can be sorry you aren't more sorry! Anyway, as long as someone is in that internal struggle, they have some level of contrition and may approach God's mercy sacramentally. To adapt a phrase, "O Lord, I'm repentant. Help my unrepentance."

[Aloysius]

If he is relishing in the effects of the evil; ie the pleasures he got from the evil acts, then he does not have the correct attitude.

If he is enjoying the final result; ie what the lessons he learned have made him today, then that is not wrong at all.

Hypothetical time-travel re-decisions are irrelevant. Whether or not he would do it again if put back in time to that same point is irrelevant. Who he is today must be someone who would never do that again because he recognizes it as morally wrong: that's all that matters. If he were to time travel, he would still be the person he is today who would not do such things. If he were to time-travel and cease to be the person he is today, but be the person he used to be, then he would make all the same mistakes because he never learned his lesson.

It is an impossibility that someone would be in a situation that they already learned a lesson from, but had to make the decision again in order to learn the lesson. That's a rediculous construct.

[93 Phillies]

I used to and somewhat still do have a problem with obsessing over my sins and feeling bad about myself and my constantly deteriorating soul in the eyes of God and myself. I don't think God wants this though. Recognition of the wrong doing, a desire to be forgiven, and the intention of not repeating the sin, is healthier, in my opinion.