Resurrexi Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 The Son proceeds from the Intellect of the Father by means of Generation. The Holy Ghost proceeds from the will or mutual love of the Father and the Son by means of spiration. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma) Why does the love of the Holy Ghost and the Father make another divine being to? Why does the love of the Son and the Holy Ghost make another divine being proceed? Why are there not infinite processions in God? Btw, I'm not trying to debate, I'm just not getting it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 The Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and the Son or the Father through the Son. Think of it this way. The Father is the existence of God, the Son is the knowing of the existence of God, and the Holy Spirit is the unity. Think of it like a man saying a word. The man speaks the word “love.” The lips have spoken it but it no longer fully belongs to the lips and comes the word love, then between the lips and this word now formed is the breath. This is hopefully to help others understand what is trying to be said. The Holy Spirit is infinitely perfect so in being the unity, like the breath between the lips and the word, there is no need for any other “persons” for this would suggest imperfection not only of the Holy Spirit but also of God. So the Holy Spirit being “infinitely perfect” He is the love and unity of the Father and the Son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1178303' date='Jan 28 2007, 01:31 AM'] The Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and the Son or the Father through the Son. Think of it this way. The Father is the existence of God, the Son is the knowing of the existence of God, and the Holy Spirit is the unity. Think of it like a man saying a word. The man speaks the word “love.” The lips have spoken it but it no longer fully belongs to the lips and comes the word love, then between the lips and this word now formed is the breath. This is hopefully to help others understand what is trying to be said. The Holy Spirit is infinitely perfect so in being the unity, like the breath between the lips and the word, there is no need for any other “persons” for this would suggest imperfection not only of the Holy Spirit but also of God. So the Holy Spirit being “infinitely perfect” He is the love and unity of the Father and the Son. [/quote] Nice analogy. With the three, the relationship between Father and Son is complete. The Father pours Himself out to the Son and that pouring forth is a pouring forth of none other than His very nature, so the nature of God, in transit as it were, between the Father and the Son, holds the entire divine nature and therefore is a divine Person, the Holy Spirit. The relationship is therefore complete. Another analogy might be a circuit. You have a positive terminal and a negative terminal. The current flows from one to the other and back. With that, the circuit is complete...there's no reason to complicate it further...but you couldn't have a complete circuit with just the two terminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Read origen De principlls book 1, chapter 2 and 3 (I can hook u up, just pm me) or Frank Sheed Theology and Sanity. Or I could email you my approval paper for the filioque project, and when I am done I could email you my research paper/ another Idea could be Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted January 28, 2007 Author Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote]Why does the love of the Holy Ghost and the Father make another divine being to? Why does the love of the Son and the Holy Ghost make another divine being proceed? Why are there not infinite processions in God? [/quote] I was tired and not very alert when I wrote that. What I meant to type was: [quote][b]Why does the love of the Holy Ghost and the Father not make another divine person to proceed? Why does the love of the Son the love of the Son and the Holy Ghost not make another divine person to proceed. Why are there not infinite processions in God[/b][/quote] [quote]Read origen De principlls book 1, chapter 2 and 3 (I can hook u up, just pm me) or Frank Sheed Theology and Sanity. Or I could email you my approval paper for the filioque project, and when I am done I could email you my research paper/ another Idea could be Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho[/quote] I can't PM you because I'm phishy, but you could email me that approval paper and when you're done your research paper. My email is MedievalCatholic@gmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1178610' date='Jan 28 2007, 02:07 PM'] I was tired and not very alert when I wrote that. What I meant to type was: Why does the love of the Holy Ghost and the Father not make another divine person to proceed? Why does the love of the Son the love of the Son and the Holy Ghost not make another divine person to proceed. Why are there not infinite processions in God? [/quote] Ah. I've thought of the question myself. The only possible answer is that the Son is the Father's beloved and the Father is the Son's beloved, but that the Holy Spirit is not a beloved in the same sense. I would say that, the Holy Spirit being God, the Father and the Son must love Him, but they don't pour out their nature to Him any more than a Father and Mother, who pour themselves out to each other, pour out themselves to their children. Futher, I would say that, in a sense, while the Holy Spirit isn't the recipient of self-gift in the Trinity, He actually is the self-gift...He receives the whole nature...it's just that it sort of passes through Him en route to the Father and the Son (of course, that's getting into speaking in a more human way, but it helps to visualize). Does that make any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted January 28, 2007 Author Share Posted January 28, 2007 So you're saying the Holy Ghost is not the recipient of the sort of Love with which the Father and the Son love each other, but is the Love Itself, though the Holy Ghost is loved by the Father and the Son with the love that Father and the Son each love Himself with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote name='Revprodeji' post='1178530' date='Jan 28 2007, 12:23 PM'] Read origen De principlls book 1, chapter 2 and 3 (I can hook u up, just pm me) or Frank Sheed Theology and Sanity. Or I could email you my approval paper for the filioque project, and when I am done I could email you my research paper/ another Idea could be Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho [/quote] You can also post your paper somewhere where we can all read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1178752' date='Jan 28 2007, 05:15 PM'] So you're saying the Holy Ghost is not the recipient of the sort of Love with which the Father and the Son love each other, but is the Love Itself, though the Holy Ghost is loved by the Father and the Son with the love that Father and the Son each love Himself with? [/quote] When I think of the Holy Spirit, I remember how Solomon described "wisdom" Wisdom of Solomon chapter 7 :22 for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me. For in her there is a spirit that is intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle, mobile, clear, unpolluted, distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen, irresistible, 23: beneficent, humane, steadfast, sure, free from anxiety, all-powerful, overseeing all, and penetrating through all spirits that are intelligent and pure and most subtle. 24: For wisdom is more mobile than any motion; because of her pureness she pervades and penetrates all things. 25: For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her. 26: For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness. 27: Though she is but one, she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them friends of God, and prophets; 28: for God loves nothing so much as the man who lives with wisdom. 29: For she is more beautiful than the sun, and excels every constellation of the stars. Compared with the light she is found to be superior, 30: for it is succeeded by the night, but against wisdom evil does not prevail. chapter 8 continues 1: She reaches mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and she orders all things well. 2: I loved her and sought her from my youth, and I desired to take her for my bride, and I became enamored of her beauty. 3: She glorifies her noble birth by living with God, and the Lord of all loves her. 4: For she is an initiate in the knowledge of God, and an associate in his works. 5: If riches are a desirable possession in life, what is richer than wisdom who effects all things? 6: And if understanding is effective, who more than she is fashioner of what exists? 7: And if any one loves righteousness, her labors are virtues; for she teaches self-control and prudence, justice and courage; nothing in life is more profitable for men than these. 8: And if any one longs for wide experience, she knows the things of old, and infers the things to come; she understands turns of speech and the solutions of riddles; she has foreknowledge of signs and wonders and of the outcome of seasons and times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1178804' date='Jan 28 2007, 05:46 PM'] You can also post your paper somewhere where we can all read it. [/quote] I honestly cant figure out how to do that yet.. The original is not that good, just kind of a few concepts in contemporay filioque debate as well as the implications of it. I introduce a 2-3 page sumary of trinitarian development. St. Thomas. I will send you an email, but go grab "theology and sanity" by Frank Sheed. I re-read the trinity part tonight and I agree with Karl Keating when he says it is the best understanding of the trinity he has ever read. I will gladly email my final paper when it is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Joey-O Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 This doesn't help in any way, but I had the exact same question when I took my intro theology course. I just sorta chalked it up to a mystery when my Prof. deftly dodged the question. I do know that Trinitarian Theology is really, really hard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I have heard another maybe more affirmative defense of the filioque... Forgive me I am by no means a philosophy major so I might miss some of the finer points... Things must differ in either nature or origin. The nature of the Holy Spirit (that is the divine nature) is the same as the Son; Therefore there must be a difference in the origin of the Holy Spirit, and since the Son proceeds from the Father the Holy Spirit must proceed from the Father and Son. If not then there is no difference in the Holy Spirit and the Son. Also STM. there was a really really good discussion of the filioque here on phatmass a while back, you can read it here. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=52356"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=52356[/url] Reading over that a few times really helped my understanding of the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 hey look...I started that one when I was working on my first paper!!!!! a shame it was locked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddington Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 [quote name='rkwright' post='1182184' date='Feb 1 2007, 02:12 PM'] Things must differ in either nature or origin. [/quote] Is that a dogma? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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