Church Sex Abuse Scandals

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1181747' date='Jan 31 2007, 08:18 PM']
And nobody claims such nonsense except yourself.
[/quote]Really?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I can't remember if I've posted this here before, but the highest number of sexual offences against children are perpetrated by teachers and family members. Some of you may have read the prayer requests I have posted on Phatmass for a fifteen-year-old friend of mine. She suffered repeated rape for seven years, starting at the age of six. She developed anorexia, depression, and chronic self-harming behaviour. She's made three near-fatal attempts on her life, her intensive care stays are getting longer and longer, and she will have to stay in psychiatric hospitals indefinitely. Her abuser was a relative and close friend.

And she's not the only one in that hospital who is in this position. She said to me with relief after she had been in there for nearly a month, "Tammy and Jess are the same as me, only with them it was their dad, and George was abused by both his uncles. They know what it's like."

The poor girl was actually happy because before that she felt that she was the only one. Me, I was reeling. I couldn't believe that so many decent men from so-called 'nice' backgrounds could be harbouring such awful secrets. It made me wonder how common this sort of behaviour was. I was so upset that I actually rang up Childline and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Britain's two leading authorities on child protection. They confirmed that the vast majority of cases involving sexual abuse are perpetrated by teachers and family members. At first I shut out the part about family members because I just didn't want to believe it.

[quote]As far as I can tell, your argument is that the sexual scandal is a societal problem, not one confined to the RC Church. You make a supposition that it's worse outside the Church. I agreed with your first point, I disagree with the second, because accurate data regarding the offenses within the Church is not likely.[/quote]

I disagree with that entirely. It is much, much easier for a family member to cover up sexual abuse than it is for a priest. A basic knowledge of human psychology tells us that much. The children who are abused often trust and look up to their relatives. In my friend's case, her parents actually used to invite her abuser to babysit because she was so fond of him. When he started to rape her, he was able to manipulate her poor little child's mind into believing things that weren't true. And because she liked and trusted him, she didn't question anything. She believed him when he said, "Your mummy and daddy love your brother more than you, and they're waiting for the chance to kick you out of the house. That's what will happen if you talk about this to anyone." She believed him when he said that she was dirty and that she deserved it. She's grown up believing that. As paedophile priests aren't so heavily involved in the lives of their victims, they do not have so much to hide behind. Manipulation is much easier if you are related to the child by blood.

[quote]But it is wrong to minimalize the heinous actions of the priests and bishops and the cover ups. Using the unfair scrutiny does not justify or excuse their actions. Time and time again, I personally have observed priests, pastors, and Bishops abuse their position, act as if they are set apart from standard morals, and use the Church as their shield.[/quote]

That is certainly true. I couldn't agree more. But I do believe that of all the Christian clergy, Catholic priests get an unfair and often downright deceitful amount of press. In fact, anyone who wears a clerical collar comes under suspicion. My college's Anglican chaplain told me of the hurt he felt when he was travelling on the train in full clerical dress. One mother pulled her children away from him when he got on board and then moved her family to another area of the train. That kind of behaviour isn't justified, but it happens. A lot. I think it is incidents like this that cause lay Catholics to go on the defensive even when a genuine conviction is made - we get tired of forever being vilified.

[quote]The Church Clergy making the 'faithful' believe the Clergy are all divine and the Church cannot sin is the lie that is the root of the entire scandal.[/quote]

The clergy do not teach that and we do not believe that. I am a Catholic because I believe in the purity of the faith and the truth of its teachings, not because I believe the clergy to be inerrant. If you find a pearl of great price, you must sell all you have to buy it - and if that means putting up with disgusting anti-priest jokes in the college cafeteria, your fellow-students assuming that they have a right to put you on trial in the common room when the Church hits the news, and pro-choicers trying to frame you by damaging college condom supplies themselves and then accusing you, so be it. As for the clergy, you will never get a church with perfect clergy. The thing to look for is a perfect Christ. The hands that place the Eucharist on my tongue may be sinful, but the Blessed Sacrament is dizzyingly perfect in every way. And He is the One who matters to me.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[SJRod55]

May we all pray for those affected in whatever way by these travesties against our Lord and against our Mother Church.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1182124' date='Feb 1 2007, 10:00 AM']
The clergy do not teach that and we do not believe that. I am a Catholic because I believe in the purity of the faith and the truth of its teachings, not because I believe the clergy to be inerrant. If you find a pearl of great price, you must sell all you have to buy it - and if that means putting up with disgusting anti-priest jokes in the college cafeteria, your fellow-students assuming that they have a right to put you on trial in the common room when the Church hits the news, and pro-choicers trying to frame you by damaging college condom supplies themselves and then accusing you, so be it. As for the clergy, you will never get a church with perfect clergy. The thing to look for is a perfect Christ. The hands that place the Eucharist on my tongue may be sinful, but the Blessed Sacrament is dizzyingly perfect in every way. And He is the One who matters to me.
[/quote]
C A,
A heart breaking story. Unfortunatly, you are underestimating the influence a priest, teacher, or anyone in athority has over a young mind. A relative may have easier access, but their power to influence is not unequaled.

If all I had to tolerate were Catholic jokes, or even Catholic hatred, no problem. I was Catholic for decades here in the deep South where anti-Catholic prejudice is the typical foundation for Southern Baptists and Fundamental Pentacostals. I've been denied jobs and treated with bias because of being Catholic. I've coped with that.
But priests and bishops acting in direct disobedience to what the Church teaches, and then defending themselves by complaining about bias, is too much, especially when they demand obedience, slack, etc.
If the Church is to be the Beacon of Morality, it needs to put sufficient effort into it. Just because it has been around for 2,000 years, doesn't mean it will be around in the same version another 2,000 years. The Church's institutional arrogance contributed to the east/west schism, as well as contributed to the Protestant split.

The Pearl of Great Price should not be sold for a relationship with the Church. God comes first. How much priest shuffling, bad liturgies, effeminate sissies, wacky theology, kooky bishops, and political extremism are the people supposed to take? Especially when it comes to the institution that is supposed to be helping people develop a relationship with God. When bad behavior (not just the sex abuse) becomes the norm, it is detrimental to the Faithful. The Church is quite clear about understanding the problem of scandal, but in practice, it does little to nothing to correct it.

Blurring the divide between the human and divine elements of the Church has been it's recurrent problem. I don't think it's God's fault, but the fault of the humans. Even so, denying the existence of the problem only fosters the growth of the problem.

C Cat misses the point completely. Cat challenged even bringing up these questions or discussing it. That is so wrong, in my book, but pretty typical of 'faithful' Catholics. The Faithful stay, don't question, and just accept it. Others use the opportunity to bash the Catholics on principal, while the third group can no longer stomache the institutionalized misbehavior and tire of being rebuffed or ignored when they look for the Church to address it's problems.

Aruguing that celibacy is the cause and wasting effort in defending celibacy is pointless. Deep down, we all know it's basic sexual morality, whether it's with kids, teens, boys, men, girls, or women, clergy, or laity. Dealing openly and honestly with it is also a fundamental moral responsiblity. Unfortunatley, the petty human bureaucratic politics of the Church Clergy are the priority and stiffle real action.

I'm no longer a practicing Catholic because of Catholic Theology. I reject Catholic practice and Catholic culture that sadly does not reflect or follow Catholic Theology or moral principles.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Perhaps I don't fully understand you, but from what I've read it sounds as though you've left the Church because the behaviour of its members doesn't always match up to the beauty of its theology. If that's the case, where can you go? There isn't anyone on this earth who is totally free from hypocrisy.

Thirty minutes ago, in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel, I was wondering what the soul is. As I meditated, I began to 'see' it as a room without walls, a nothingness, a space for God alone - and for me too, if I can find courage enough to set foot in there even for a second. It reminded me of a motto that is painted on the wall of a monastery I am discerning with: "At Carmel and at the judgement I am alone with God." This knowledge, so intense it is almost physically painful, is with me at Holy Communion especially.

This is why I am a Catholic. He never leaves me, so I couldn't possibly leave Him alone in the tabernacle if Priest Y was convicted of raping a child. In fact, the more sins the clergy commit, the greater the reason to stay with Him, remain with Him, watch and pray.

[quote]The Pearl of Great Price should not be sold for a relationship with the Church. God comes first.[/quote]

This is why I said that my focus is never on the hands that are holding the Eucharist.

[quote]How much priest shuffling, bad liturgies, effeminate sissies, wacky theology, kooky bishops, and political extremism are the people supposed to take?[/quote]

Jesus took the crucifixion, which was a thousand times worse than our most horrific earthly nightmares. If He took the cross, I can take all of what you have just outlined - and more. It is certainly difficult, but God willing I will persist in it.

[quote]The Church is quite clear about understanding the problem of scandal, but in practice, it does little to nothing to correct it.[/quote]

We don't know that. An ex-student from my university is applying to the Archdiocese of Westminster for entry to the seminary, and he was made to undergo a full psychological assessment that probed into the most private corners of his life. Not just anybody can walk into the priesthood these days - they do try to screen their applicants as carefully as possible, at least in Britain. Despite the shortage of priests, candidates are rejected if they aren't thought to be psychologically healthy. The application process isn't totally watertight and it never will be, but at the least the effort is being made. I also believe that the cover-ups within the Church are not nearly so numerous or as deep as the media has made out. The BBC, normally one of the world's most impartial news services, has once again got into trouble with secular media watchdogs in this country for giving distorted coverage of the controversy.

[quote]Aruguing that celibacy is the cause and wasting effort in defending celibacy is pointless. Deep down, we all know it's basic sexual morality, whether it's with kids, teens, boys, men, girls, or women, clergy, or laity. Dealing openly and honestly with it is also a fundamental moral responsiblity.[/quote]

Amen to that.

[quote]Unfortunatley, the petty human bureaucratic politics of the Church Clergy are the priority and stiffle real action.[/quote]

I'm not so sure about that one. In my experience, the thing that really cripples and silences people on all kinds of sensitive issues is not bureaucracy. It's fear.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]Anomaly[/b]
"C Cat misses the point completely. ([b]1[/b]) Cat challenged even bringing up these questions or discussing it. ([b]2[/b]) That is so wrong, in my book, but pretty typical of 'faithful' Catholics. ([b]3[/b]) The Faithful stay, don't question, and just accept it. ([b]4[/b]) Others use the opportunity to bash the Catholics on principal, while the third group can no longer stomach the institutionalized misbehavior and tire of being rebuffed or ignored when they look for the Church to address its problems. ([b]5[/b])"[/quote]([b]1[/b]) Please explain where I missed the point? Otherwise I am unsure what you are trying to claim or propose to this discussion.

([b]2[/b]) Where did I challenge the discussion of this topic? I believe I requested evidence from this user to several position s taken. I do not believe this warrants an attack on the discussion itself.

([b]3[/b]) You have proposed I have done some kind of wrong doing, but yet I do not even see evidence to your claims against me so far. Could you please explain in "detail" what I have done? I will ignore the derogatory comment.

([b]4[/b]) Where did I claim to simply "accept it" or not to "question it?" Any assistance would be userful.

([b]5[/b]) The Church condemns the sinful actions and do not condone them, as I posted before. Could someone please explain how this is relevant to me or how I am defending those whom have wronged? For I have directly stated that we do not condone of their actions and even condemn them.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1180786' date='Jan 30 2007, 08:11 PM']
Which I have showed the Church is affected but not as affected as other communities of belief is, therefore one besides giving proof of more abuses [b]one needs to explain why its important or even relevant to discussion of this matter.[/b]
[/quote]
'nuff said.

I challenged the credibility of data relating to the reate of offenses within the Church and then made the point that addressing and dealing with the problem requires dealing with moral principles, not fussing about how the public percieves the problem. Whether the problem is real, real, real bad, or real, real, real, real, real, really bad is moot.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1182212' date='Feb 1 2007, 12:28 PM']

I'm no longer a practicing Catholic because of Catholic Theology. I reject Catholic practice and Catholic culture that sadly does not reflect or follow Catholic Theology or moral principles.
[/quote]

Hows that working for ya Jas?
Are you a much happier, friendlier, more contented human being ?

Don't bother annswering, its a rhetorical question.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1180711' date='Jan 30 2007, 06:39 PM']
As far as I can tell, your argument is that the sexual scandal is a societal problem, not one confined to the RC Church. You make a supposition that it's worse outside the Church. [b] [color="#FF0000"]I agreed with your first point, I disagree with the second, [u]because accurate data regarding the offenses within the Church is not likely[/color][/u][/b]. The point I make is that the Church Clergy (nor the laity) should not make excuses for the offenders and the clergy should be held to a much higher standard than the lay person. My pointed observations have never been called poetic though. Thanks.

Edit to add:
I've just noticed that I've now been labeled 'Separated Brethren' and given 'hello, I do not rep the church'. I guess the mods have finally listened to the whiners. LOL
[/quote]This is the proof that I request for. Then if it is the same in the Church as it is outside of the Church, what does it matter? It is not a challenged but rather an invitation to make your point clear. Think about its relevance, if it is everywhere and even more so outside of the Church what would be “proved” in the fact that some cases are kept private or that we are not aware of all the abuses? It is a human problem more than it is a Catholic problem, but the Church has taken precautions that is helping prevent such abuse.[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1180786' date='Jan 30 2007, 07:11 PM']
Christians are called to love all people and to profess to the truth, you are proposing nothing different than before. [u][b][color="#FF0000"]If you have an objection to the Church in claiming there is distortion or more than what is being reported, provide proof otherwise what you say is heresy and thus gossip[/color][/b][/u]. Being a people of truth we ought to not adhere to those whimsical statements of people no matter how poetic they are for even the serpent could seduce the woman into taking the fruit, disobeying God’s command.

There were sins committed and people wronged by those people in the Church but this does not negate the Church as a whole or Priests and Bishops universally. For if we wish to track abuse to the start we could look at Saint Peter the Apostle and the disciples whom all fled from the Cross, only Saint John the Apostle returned to stand at our Lord’s side. The one whom our Lord picked betrayed Him. But this does not destroy the Church or their ministry, but rather it simply shows how God wishes to work through sinners.

We love them for they are God’s creation, even though sinners. But we must hate their sin and what they have done. The Catholic Church condemns what they have done as sinful past and present, so this certainly is not condoned. So we are speaking not of the Church but rather sinful man that leads back to the whole of humanity. [b][u][color="#FF0000"]Which I have showed the Church is affected but not as affected as other communities of belief is, therefore one besides giving proof of more abuses one needs to explain why its important or even relevant to discussion of this matter[/color][/u][/b].
[/quote]Therefore I do not make the claim that you propose I do... It is simply taken out of context which is highly offending.[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1182303' date='Feb 1 2007, 01:30 PM']
([b]1[/b]) Please explain where I missed the point? Otherwise I am unsure what you are trying to claim or propose to this discussion.

([b]2[/b]) [b][u][color="#FF0000"]Where did I challenge the discussion of this topic? I believe I requested evidence from this user to several positions taken. I do not believe this warrants an attack on the discussion itself[/color][/u].[/b]

([b]3[/b]) You have proposed I have done some kind of wrong doing, but yet I do not even see evidence to your claims against me so far. Could you please explain in "detail" what I have done? I will ignore the derogatory comment.

([b]4[/b]) Where did I claim to simply "accept it" or not to "question it?" Any assistance would be useful.

([b]5[/b]) The Church condemns the sinful actions and do not condone them, as I posted before. Could someone please explain how this is relevant to me or how I am defending those whom have wronged? For I have directly stated that we do not condone of their actions and even condemn them.
[/quote][quote name='Anomaly' post='1182314' date='Feb 1 2007, 02:20 PM']
'nuff said.

[b][u][color="#FF0000"]I challenged the credibility of data relating to the related of offenses within the Church and then made the point that addressing and dealing with the problem requires dealing with moral principles, not fussing about how the public perceives the problem. Whether the problem is real, real, real bad, or real, real, real, real, real, really bad is moot[/color][/u][/b].
[/quote]Sadly it isnt '"nuff" said but rather it questions your commitment to honest discussion... I although edited your posts to make some minor corrections to spelling, since we are now arguing the exact meanings of sentences.

So you still refuse to really give any proof other than heresay or gossip? Futher, you accuse me of wrong doing but do not back anything up?

Edited February 1, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Anomaly]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1182332' date='Feb 1 2007, 03:59 PM']
Hows that working for ya Jas?
Are you a much happier, friendlier, more contented human being ?

Don't bother annswering, its a rhetorical question.
[/quote]
Honestly. Yes I am, thank you. Though some people feel hurt when they confront my opinion of the RC Church.

[Aloysius]

sounds like you had personality problems while within the Catholic Church that had nothing to do with the doctrine... unless you'd honestly sit here and try to blame your previous less-happy less-friendly less-contented state on Catholic teaching... which would be, of course, ridiculous.

[Anomaly]

How did it get about me?
If you can't defend against a challenging idea, attack the person.

Who wouldn't be happily relieved to find their relationship with God is not controlled and dictated by the whims of fellow mere mortals?

[Aloysius]

everyone would. I was happily relieved to discover this as well, when I learnd just what the Church really teaches.

if you find yourself happier and more friendly and more content, it is likely because you have a different attitude about life and not because you stopped believing the in some absolute magisterial power; even if you connect these two things in your mind.

your analysis that no one has defended against a challenging idea is off. this was just a little side discussion relating to your anti-Catholic opinion here. I don't believe you responded to my post... of course I just represented that tired-old "priests aren't gods" "bishops can be wrong" "such priests should be punished severely" crowd who doesn't make the leap from that to "the Church doesn't have divine authority when it comes to teaching"

I believe in Capital punishment for all pedophiles; or at least all repeat pedophiles. I do not believe they should ever be allowed to have ANY job which puts them in contact with any othe rhuman being. If they are sent to prison, it should be for life in solitary confinement. They have to be treated harshly and severely.

Unfortunately, we as a society have not come to terms with how to deal with these people. Bishops have moved them from parish to parish. Judges have given them light sentences. No one has grasped the teaching of Our Lord and Savior: that it'd be better for these people that a millstone be tied around their neck and they be thrown into the sea.

It's horrid. Bishops don't administrate correctly. This is not news, though. The administration is not what we call divine, it is the teaching we call divine. And if you don't believe these two things CAN be seperate, you lack faith. If you just don't think that they are seperate in the Church, then that position does not necessarily lack faith but it contradicts logic, IMHO.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1182450' date='Feb 1 2007, 06:46 PM']
How did it get about me?
If you can't defend against a challenging idea, attack the person.

Who wouldn't be happily relieved to find their relationship with God is not controlled and dictated by the whims of fellow mere mortals?
[/quote]
I wasn't attacking , merely inquiring.
My relationship with God has never been controlled by other people, but God, the Church has only deepened and enhanced it.
I feel no hurt, only pity that the Church has lost a good man.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1182404' date='Feb 1 2007, 05:55 PM']
Honestly. Yes I am, thank you. Though some people feel hurt when they confront my opinion of the RC Church.
[/quote]
Well, why don't you get out there and enjoy your new-found happiness in life, rather than sitting hunched over a computer, bitching endlessly about a Church you don't belong to??


Sheesh!