Mel Gibson And Schism

[Bruce S]

First: A disclaimer.

I have been online SUPPORTING Mel, and his movie, THE PASSION OF *THE* CHRIST, for over a year now, all over the nets. This movie will change hearts, and covert millions, but even more importantly, it will strike INTO every Christian's heart...and move you like nothing on film has done before.

Now I found this one ... It struck me as odd, and I would like the opinion of the posters on it.

Reuters:

Everybody likes Mel Gibson. He’s an award-winning actor, he’s box-office gold and he seems like a nice guy. But because of his fame and The Passion, his forthcoming movie about Christ, a lot of his fans would like to be clear on where he stands with respect to the Catholic Church, a Dallas-based author says.

Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D., is an associate of the Canon Law Society of America and a best-selling writer whose book Rosary: Mysteries, Meditations, and the Telling of the Beads includes one of the most graphic accounts of the Crucifixion ever published. He’ll definitely see Gibson’s film about the sufferings of Christ on the Cross. But Gibson’s campaign to build a church in Malibu, California, raises some serious issues about the actor’s relationship with the Catholic Church.

“You can’t just build your own church,” Johnson says. Parishes are geographical entities, set up by bishops in conformance with the Church’s laws and subject to their authority. “There are no free-lance churches in the Catholic Church. You live in a parish, and you go to its church.” Every place in California is already part of a parish, which has its own church.

Gibson’s parish, then, would be the aptly named Our Lady of Malibu on Winter Canyon Road, Johnson says, looking through a Los Angeles Catholic directory. But, according to The New York Times Magazine, the actor’s privately funded Church of the Holy Family in Malibu is not affiliated with any diocese. So, according to Church law, it’s schismatic, not a Catholic church at all.

The Church’s Code of Canon Law defines schism--separation from the Church--as “the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.” Gibson’s father, Houston, Texas resident Hutton Gibson, is an outspoken critic of the Catholic Church and a vocal adherent of the “sedevacantist” movement, so called from the Latin phrase meaning “empty seat”--their claim being that every pope since 1960 has been spurious.

So, the question on the floor is....

I Mel Gibson even a real Catholic given that quote, or is Mel apostate and schismatic and thus excluded from calling himself one anymore?

[Winchester]

What is Mel's motivation and how shall he go about this alleged intention? Your answer lies therein.

[Anna]

Well, Bruce,

The answer is that Mel Gibson, like his dad, is in schism. The unity is missing. They go through the motions of Catholicism, but are not united to the head.

What happens when a body is severed from its head? Or, perhaps better yet, I should say what happens when a member is severed from the body? Hopefully, this member is not totally severed off, but merely "broken away," and there is still the possibility of re-uniting, or re-membering.

While Christ is truly the Head of the Mystical Body, He established an earthly 'headship' so to speak, in His Vicar, the pope.

One cannot merely mimmick Catholicism and think himself Catholic, and one cannot take only the elements of Catholicism with which he agrees, and discard other aspects with which he may disagree.

The Catholic Faith is One. It is a whole. It is either entirely accepted, or entirely rejected.

I understand and sympathise with many of the concerns of the sedevacantists in regard to much of the beautiful tradition and reverence being missing in some of our liturgies, compared to years gone by; however, they have no basis for declaring the pope to be spurious, and his chair vacant. Nor do they have any God-given authority to go about starting churches on their own and affixing the name "Catholic" to them.

Please, now, don't ask whether Mel is saved or not!!! Only God knows his heart! But we continue to pray for unity with ALL our separated brethren, including the sedevacantists.

Would I watch The Passion? You bet! I think it's the best portrayal of Christ to come out of Hollywood in a long, long, long time. (Well, ok, the movie was shot in Assissi, but you know what I mean!)

Pax Christi. <><

Edited January 22, 2004 by Anna

[Bruce S]

from ETWN news

What is odd here, is I'm perhaps more conservative than most, and thus, support most Catholic SOCIAL issues, where you lead, items such as marriage, abortion, dignity of life and the like are certainly where Catholics shine.

Now we disagree on a LOT of other things, however that is to be expected.

I guess you have internal divisions that affect you too, join the club here.

Mel's 'THE MAN' and if this movie is successful, it might encourage others to start making REAL religion movies, and not attack religion movies.

However, Hollywood and it's component parts isn't structured that way, sadly.

Edited January 22, 2004 by Bruce S

[Anna]

Bruce,

I agree. Hollywood has so distanced itself from God and True Religion that it doesn't recognize either any more!

I doubt that the folks at EWTN will address Mel about his schismatic viewpoints. Rather, they will most likely look to the good that the film will achieve, and congratulate him for overcoming the many obstacles he faced in getting the movie this far.

His sins won't be broadcast across the EWTN airwaves. There he will find love, encouragement, and support.

Sixty minutes is also airing a story about him. The stones are more likely to fly, both at Mel and the Church, on CBS!

Pax Christi. <><

Edited January 22, 2004 by Anna

[Laudate_Dominum]

I have heard mixed things about Mel Gibson in this regard. I know for a fact that his Father is a schismatic and from things he's said, does not seem very balanced in the head. Perhaps he's senile, I don't know. But Mel Gibson was certainly influenced by his father both in his Catholic childhood and in his reversion to the faith as an adult. Is he a true schismatic? I honestly don't know. Does he have his own parish? Doubtful, since a parish is associated with a diocese and Bishop. He probably has a private "chapel" where a priest comes to say Tridentine Mass (I've heard he only attends Tridentine Masses). There are many private chapels like this all over the world. The problem is if this chapel is illicit, not approved by a Bishop, or if the priests that say Mass for him are members of a schismatic group such as the SSPX. My roommate is a personal friend of a priest who was asked by Mel Gibson to say private Tridentine Masses for him during the filming of "The Passion". My roommate said that this priest friend of his is 100% orthodox and totally faithful to the Pope and everything. So I don't know what to make of it. My impression is that the man who plays Christ in the movie is very orthodox. My Mom's view (she reads a lot about current events in the Church) is that Mel Gibson has struggled with schismatic tendencies over the years (surely influenced by his father) but is improving. I hope someone else has more solid information about this. If he is a schismatic I don't think we should consider him a non-catholic and a heretic but we should treat him as we would an Eastern Orthodox person, as a seperated brethren who still attends a valid Mass and probably adheres to the faith better than a lot of "catholics in good standing". I feel sorry for Mel Gibson if this is the case because there is a whole subculture devoted to saying that Vatican II is whack and the new Mass is invalid and all kinds of other nonsense. I've known many people like this and they are generally very sincere people who love Catholicism but truly believe that the Church is in a crisis and the answer is to join a schismatic sect. They tend to have a faithful remnant mentality. They are preserving the faith in it's purity in this time of heresy and corruption. Of course they are in error, but it is easy for me to see how one could fall into this error and I have sympathy for them. Most radical traditionalist schismatics that I've known pray for the holy father all the time and love the Church. They honestly believe that the holy father and the Church are in error, that is why some fall into sede vacantism, saying that Vatican II and the last few Popes are invalid. It's how they try to reconcile what they percieve as errors in the Church with the fact that Popes and Councils are infallible. It's a bold attempt but their arguments are very flawed.

Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent. The point is, if this rumor is true, let's pray for Mel Gibson instead of condemning him. I believe he is a good person for wanted to make this movie and I know he has made tremendous sacrifices for it, and it's because he loves Jesus Christ and wants to proclaim the truth of Christ's Holy Sacrifice to the world.

[Anna]

I agree with everything you said, too Laudate. I hope I didn't sound like I was "condemning" Mel...

*thinks* "Oh, it's 'Mel,' now, is it? We're on a first name basis with Mr. Gibson?"

Pax Christ. <><

[thicke]

Here's what I think. I think it's not really any of our business what his relationship with Rome is. I don't know if he is schismatic or not. But, he has not spoken out against Rome or the Pope. I have not heard of him trying to convert Catholics to schism. It doesn't look like this movie will try to do that either. If I knew him personally or otherwise had access to him it would matter because I would have a sacred duty to correct his error, if he was schismatic.

I guess the talk of his relationship with Rome has always sounded too much like simple gossip to me....

[Laudate_Dominum]

*thinks* "Oh, it's 'Mel,' now, is it? We're on a first name basis with Mr. Gibson?"

Ha ha!! No kidding. :hehe:

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Here's what I think. I think it's not really any of our business what his relationship with Rome is. I don't know if he is schismatic or not. But, he has not spoken out against Rome or the Pope. I have not heard of him trying to convert Catholics to schism. It doesn't look like this movie will try to do that either. If I knew him personally or otherwise had access to him it would matter because I would have a sacred duty to correct his error, if he was schismatic.

I guess the talk of his relationship with Rome has always sounded too much like simple gossip to me....

He may not be talking bad about Rome per say. But he is a famous person and people would tend to see him as a role model for Catholicism. If they see him in his schism ways, they may think its normal, or want to follow his lead.

I know several people that wanted to join the Scientology carp just because John Travolta and Tom Cruise are apart of it.

As a famous Catholic, I think he has a responsibility to not be a schism and to lead others in the right direction.

Personally im kinda disturbed at the news I just read here. I've been talking about how cool Mel Gibson was for being a devout Catholic, until this, guess he's devout just not in complete Union with Rome...hmm. I dont know what to think now.

If its true that he is building his own church, man..who does the man think he is to do that?

oh well, still cant wait to see the movie

[thicke]

He may not be talking bad about Rome per say. But he is a famous person and people would tend to see him as a role model for Catholicism. If they see him in his schism ways, they may think its normal, or want to follow his lead.

I know several people that wanted to join the Scientology carp just because John Travolta and Tom Cruise are apart of it.

As a famous Catholic, I think he has a responsibility to not be a schism and to lead others in the right direction.

Personally im kinda disturbed at the news I just read here. I've been talking about how cool Mel Gibson was for being a devout Catholic, until this, guess he's devout just not in complete Union with Rome...hmm. I dont know what to think now.

If its true that he is building his own church, man..who does the man think he is to do that?

oh well, still cant wait to see the movie

Oh, I agree with you 100%. If he speaks out against Rome, then it is my business. But as far as I can tell, he is keeping his own mouth shut about it. It seems that some journalists are making assumptions.

Wouldn't it be terrible if we all labeled him a schismatic when he wasn't. After which he starts making wonderful statements about Rome that no one listens to because they all think he's a schismatic. Just throwing out a hypothetical.

[Laudate_Dominum]

If this rumor is true, I'm sure he's not "building his own church" at least that's not how he sees it. If Mel Gibson is a full fledged sedevacantist as his father was reported to be in a post above, then he probably believes that he holds the Catholic faith truly and entirely and is doing what is best for the Church. Sedevecantists generally believe that Vatican II and the Popes since have officially taught heresy. This is an honest conviction that they have, they hold it in good conscience! They then conclude that since the Pope and Councils are infallible (yes they hold to the infallibility of the Pope, they hold to everything to Church teaches with the exception of developments since 1960 or so), they conclude that the Council and Popes since that time must not be valid! Kind of like in times past when there were anti-popes, false popes illegitimately elected. They usually say Pope John XXIII was the first in this string of anti-popes. This would also make the council invalid since it is the authority of the pope that ratified it. But the seat of Peter is vacant, that's the jist of sedevacantism. It shows that they have great faith in the infallability of the Pope since they do not just reject the doctrine and abandon the Faith. That's the point, they are not in union with the Pope because of honest error, but they still believe in the faith! They accept everything up to 1960 or so, which is much more than the Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, or any other seperated brethren, and more than many Roman Catholics who are in union with the Pope, like people who don't believe in the real presence or papal infallability or something. It seems more likely that Mel Gibson is a more moderate schismatic traditionalist. The sedevacantists are kind of the phringe radical of the schismatic traditionalists because their position is pretty far fetched in a lot of ways and they often become these almost cultish little faithful remnant communities and several have even claimed their own "valid" popes!

The Society of St. Pius X, is a more moderate group, they claim that they are not in schism but it seems obvious that they are. Their leader (God rest his soul) was excommunicated for crying out loud. I'm not sure what they hold these days, it's changed since the first time I went to their site and read their arguments, but it's not sedevacantist at least. They do think the novus ordo was a mistake (some members I've talked to think it's invalid, others think it's valid but corrupt so I don't think they are very unified in their views) and that Vatican II was problematic, they usually don't argue that it's invalid but argue that it's "just pastoral" and not dogmatic so it can have errors. This post could get huge trying to sift through all the errors of these groups. The point is, whatever Mel Gibson's problem is, I'm sure he is doing what he thinks is best to serve Christ and His Church and that He loves the Catholic faith. He is in error, we should respond with prayers and if possible to try and help him get out of his errors, this is a spiritual work of mercy, talking to people in heresy and error and helping them get out of it.

Schismatic traditionalist are some of the most passionate people I've met when it comes to Catholicism. I hope mel Gibson overcomes whatever errors he may struggle with. He's an amesome, inspiring witness to the Truth, even if he's got some flaws.

[Anna]

Since Mel (aka Mr. Gibson ) is a public figure, his actions do speak as words, though.

He has built a huge cathedral, as I understand it. And Mass (illicit, perhaps) is offered there.

Need he say more?

For Roman Catholics to be concerned about scandal, and concerned for his own spiritual well being, I think, is normal.

I'm sure his heart is in the right place, he loves Jesus, and obviously devotes a great amount of his time, talent, and treasure to express that love.

But we probably shouldn't go around telling peeps what an amesome, devoted Catholic he is...unless we're pretty darn sure that he is.

Love ya, Mel!!! :wub:

Pax Christi. <><

[Laudate_Dominum]

Since Mel (aka Mr. Gibson  ) is a public figure, his actions do speak as words, though.

He has built a huge cathedral, as I understand it. And Mass (illicit, perhaps) is offered there.

Need he say more?

For Roman Catholics to be concerned about scandal, and concerned for his own spiritual well being, I think, is normal.

Yes, I agree Anna. Perhaps I've idealized Mel a bit because I'm so in awe of the movie he's making. But your right, his alleged views, honest or not, are scandalous and attack the Church.

I hope his cathedral is legit because I'll bet it's nice. I would like to visit it if it is approved by the Church.

I wish he would come to PhatMass so we could talk to him and figure out what's up with him. :)

[Laudate_Dominum]

It feels so cool to call Mr. Gibson, "Mel". :smokey: