What Should A Christian Do If Someone Tells Them There Is A Trinity

[Jesus_lol]

its like a shamrock. three leafs yet still just one leaf!

[goldenchild17]

Fulltruth, would you say that God is schizophrenic?

Genesis 1:26 "And he said: Let us make man to our image..."

Who is "us" and "our"? Or is he admitting that something other than Himself can create from nothing?

[traichuoi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1175016' date='Jan 24 2007, 01:57 PM']
God is One and God is Three.

God is one because there can be no division in God. Naturally, if there was division in God, there would be three supreme beings. There can only be one supreme Being.

God is three because God is love. Love requires a lover and a lovee. Creation is not a sufficient recipient of God's love because creation can never receive God entirely. Therefore, the lovee must be eternal, like the Father. This means that there are at least two Persons in one Godhead. The love itself, that self-gift from God, is also a Person, because if the Father gives His whole self, then the flow of being from Father to Son must have the whole nature of the Father (this is why the Holy Spirit is always seen in Scripture as wind; He flows and moves in love; He is animate; He is the Lord, the Giver of Life).

Furthermore, we know that "Father" and "Son" are relational terms. One person cannot be in relation with himself. Two persons can have a relationship.

Further, the Son is the Word of the Father. He is the one eternal utterance of God. Just as any speech comes from what is inside the speaker, so the Son comes from inside His Father. Just as words express the person who speaks, so the Son expresses the Father, but where human nature fails, divine nature succeeds. The Son perfectly expresses His Father and thus has all that His Father has.

Now, this seems that we are saying that there are three separate beings, but this is not true. There is one being. The being, the essence, the nature of the Father is what the Father gives the Son. Therefore, there is one nature, one divinity which both Father and Son have at once. Note that this can only happen if the two dwell within one another, as Christ said, "that I am in you and you are in me, Father...that we are one." Jesus was not praying to Himself.

This is why we say: the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet the Father is not the Son, nor the Son the Holy Spirit, nor the Holy Spirit the Father, yet they are all of the same essence and nature, but distinct because of their relationships. A human father has children with a human mother, but God needs no human mother to have a Son. Therefore, while a human child only has half of his father's genes, because he also has his mother's, the Son of God has all of His Father's Nature, the divine Nature, and is all that His Father is, yet He is not His Father.

Thus God spoke in the beginning, saying, "we shall make man in our image," using the plural. Thus also, as part of man's nature, in order to image God all the more, God made man a social creature and gave Adam a wife, Eve. God wished to have a relationship also with creation and, in the fulness of time, sent His Son to be born of a woman. His Son, His eternal offspring, was thus the firstborn of all creation. God has a relationship with us so that we might have a relationship with Him. God makes creation, particularly the Church, His spouse. So we see that just as there is relationship within the Godhead and relationship within creation, so there is relationship between God and man and relationship between man and God, so that the relationship in God is fully reflected and fully manifested in creation and so that the relationship between God and man is brought to completion, to total intimacy, so that each possible connection is fulfilled. So the Son pours out His Blood upon the Cross for man, just as the Father pours Himself out to the Son, so that in return, just as a man pours out himself to his wife, so mankind may pour itself out to God in Christ. You should see, then, how the self-gift is made all around and is a mark of God's love. God became man to enable us to love like this. The Father pours out Himself to the Son, the Son pours Himself back. The Son pours out Himself to mankind, mankind pours itself back. The Son pours out mankind to the Father. In other words, the Son eternally pours Himself out the the Father, but, having become man and having died to claim man and having received man, the Son may now also pour man out to God in the very gift of Himself, for He has bound man to Himself in the Church. The entire dynamic of salvation is meant to mirror the Trinity's self-giving love. If God is not a Trinity, but only one, then this intimacy cannot exist, nor this self-gift. If God is not a Trinity, then there can be no love, but only coldness, rigidness, and harsh immutability. If God is not a Trinity, then there can be no Incarnation. If God is not a Trinity, then there can be no creation or redemption.

God is Tri-une, Three in One.
[/quote]

[Resurrexi]

[quote]God is One and God is Three.

God is one because there can be no division in God. Naturally, if there was division in God, there would be three supreme beings. There can only be one supreme Being.

God is three because God is love. Love requires a lover and a lovee. Creation is not a sufficient recipient of God's love because creation can never receive God entirely. Therefore, the lovee must be eternal, like the Father. This means that there are at least two Persons in one Godhead. The love itself, that self-gift from God, is also a Person, because if the Father gives His whole self, then the flow of being from Father to Son must have the whole nature of the Father (this is why the Holy Spirit is always seen in Scripture as wind; He flows and moves in love; He is animate; He is the Lord, the Giver of Life).

Furthermore, we know that "Father" and "Son" are relational terms. One person cannot be in relation with himself. Two persons can have a relationship.

Further, the Son is the Word of the Father. He is the one eternal utterance of God. Just as any speech comes from what is inside the speaker, so the Son comes from inside His Father. Just as words express the person who speaks, so the Son expresses the Father, but where human nature fails, divine nature succeeds. The Son perfectly expresses His Father and thus has all that His Father has.

Now, this seems that we are saying that there are three separate beings, but this is not true. There is one being. The being, the essence, the nature of the Father is what the Father gives the Son. Therefore, there is one nature, one divinity which both Father and Son have at once. Note that this can only happen if the two dwell within one another, as Christ said, "that I am in you and you are in me, Father...that we are one." Jesus was not praying to Himself.

This is why we say: the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet the Father is not the Son, nor the Son the Holy Spirit, nor the Holy Spirit the Father, yet they are all of the same essence and nature, but distinct because of their relationships. A human father has children with a human mother, but God needs no human mother to have a Son. Therefore, while a human child only has half of his father's genes, because he also has his mother's, the Son of God has all of His Father's Nature, the divine Nature, and is all that His Father is, yet He is not His Father.

Thus God spoke in the beginning, saying, "we shall make man in our image," using the plural. Thus also, as part of man's nature, in order to image God all the more, God made man a social creature and gave Adam a wife, Eve. God wished to have a relationship also with creation and, in the fulness of time, sent His Son to be born of a woman. His Son, His eternal offspring, was thus the firstborn of all creation. God has a relationship with us so that we might have a relationship with Him. God makes creation, particularly the Church, His spouse. So we see that just as there is relationship within the Godhead and relationship within creation, so there is relationship between God and man and relationship between man and God, so that the relationship in God is fully reflected and fully manifested in creation and so that the relationship between God and man is brought to completion, to total intimacy, so that each possible connection is fulfilled. So the Son pours out His Blood upon the Cross for man, just as the Father pours Himself out to the Son, so that in return, just as a man pours out himself to his wife, so mankind may pour itself out to God in Christ. You should see, then, how the self-gift is made all around and is a mark of God's love. God became man to enable us to love like this. The Father pours out Himself to the Son, the Son pours Himself back. The Son pours out Himself to mankind, mankind pours itself back. The Son pours out mankind to the Father. In other words, the Son eternally pours Himself out the the Father, but, having become man and having died to claim man and having received man, the Son may now also pour man out to God in the very gift of Himself, for He has bound man to Himself in the Church. The entire dynamic of salvation is meant to mirror the Trinity's self-giving love. If God is not a Trinity, but only one, then this intimacy cannot exist, nor this self-gift. If God is not a Trinity, then there can be no love, but only coldness, rigidness, and harsh immutability. If God is not a Trinity, then there can be no Incarnation. If God is not a Trinity, then there can be no creation or redemption.

God is Tri-une, Three in One.[/quote]

Your explanation of the Son being the recipient of the Love of the Father and the Holy Ghost being the Love of the Father and Son was good, as the Catechism of Trent says:

[quote name='The Catechism of the Council of Trent'] Let him, however, who by the divine bounty believes these truths, constantly beseech and implore God and the Father, who made all things out of nothing, and orders all things sweetly,39 who gave us power to become the sons of God,40 and who made known to the human mind the mystery of the Trinity - let him, I say, pray unceasingly that, admitted one day into the eternal tabernacles,41 he may be worthy to see how great is the fecundity of the Father, who contemplating and understanding Himself, begot the Son like and equal to Himself, how a love of charity in both, entirely the same and equal, which is the Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father and the Son, connects the begetter and the begotten by an eternal and indissoluble bond; and that thus the Essence of the Trinity is one and the distinction of the Three Persons perfect.[/quote]

and it also says:

[quote name='The Catechism of the Council of Trent'] The Father, in particular, we call almighty, because He is the Source of all being; as we also attribute wisdom to the Son, because He is the eternal Word of the Father; and goodness to the Holy Spirit, because He is the love of both. These, however, and similar appellations, may be given indiscriminately to the Three Persons, according to the teaching of Catholic faith.*[/quote]

But I think the reason that God became Man was to redeem us:

[quote name='The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X']1 Q. What are we taught in the Second Article: And in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord?
A. The Second Article of the Creed teaches us that the Son of God is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity; that, like the Father, He is God eternal, omnipotent, Creator and Lord; that He became man to save us; and that the Son of God, made man, is called Jesus Christ. [/quote]

As to the question asked by with thread, which is "What should a Christian do if someone tells him that there is one God in three Persons". The answer would be "A Christian to whom has been told that there is one God in three Persons should agree that person that there is one God in three Persons because if a Christian does not believe that there is one God in three Persons, the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, he is no longer a Christian, but a heretic."

Edited January 25, 2007 by StThomasMore

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Of course the reason God became man was to redeem us, but what is redemption, if not the restoration and exaltation of man to and above his original place in creation? If Adam walked with God in the Garden of Eden, then it makes sense that redemption includes an aspect of unity and self-gift between God and man. I would argue that that is man's primary vocation, since the entire thing hinges on love.

STM, no offense, but you need to stop looking for things to disagree about. Most of the time, we believe the same things, you just like to argue so much that it's like you can't appreciate a single aspect of truth without criticizing that it's not the whole truth...I was explaining one aspect, not exhausting the theology of the Trinity. If I said something heretical, I'll humbly bow to your correction, but if your correction doesn't actually go against what I said, then I don't see your point in posting it. Can't you just say, "good reflection," and add your own input in a constructive way rather than making it sound like you're criticizing me (and others) for being incomplete?

[mroger]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174942' date='Jan 24 2007, 03:29 PM']

[color="#FF0000"]I want everybody to realize we are being brain washed by elites to believe we need Religion and Government and only our religion is the right one. I say dissolve them all and get rid of them, [/color] and let Yeshua take the government. Unfortunately, that day hasn't come to us yet. When it does, then Yeshua will teach all of us the right and true doctrine, tesifying what is of him and what is not of him..
[/quote]

Okay, we finally see your agenda and it is [color="#FF0000"]clear[/color].

[quote]Unfortunately, that day hasn't come to us yet.[/quote]

It sounds like you want to bring on the end of the world. man will govern manself, it has always been that way. even in the judaic tradition. we're not being brainwashed by elites, it is my opinion that others are being brainwashed by satan. like you said, he doesn't play fair.

ergo,

[quote]Yeshua will teach all of us the right and true doctrine, tesifying what is of him and what is not of him[/quote]

you see, Full of Truth, this event has already happened. It occured when Jesus Christ came to save us from sin. Teach us by His own mouth, and then give us the means to carry on what He commanded - that is to rule, not by authority, but by love...and compassion. Deus Caritas Est. If God is the supreme authority and God is love, then what is love? Love is the authority by which the Holy Catholic Church proclaims its message!!!

Now can you see?

Satan will use whatever means necessary to tear down that kind of love, to turn man against its brother until man exists no more.

In this effort, we all stumble. That is what reconcilliation is for. In this sacrament, we reconcile ourselves to Christ.

Historically speaking, God has ALWAYS used authority. He ordains it. Authority that is delivered by man. Man is not the authority, but God, through the instrument of man. That's how it's always been.

Unless you're a prophet, and I know you're not...I beg that you stop asking for the end times and the end of religion.

God talks to us all, but listening...listening is the key. Discernment. I want you to do something, though. I want you to be still, allow God to let this sink in, and listen to His word. I want you to think SLOWLY about what you are really asking and the consequence of such a demand. I know that we all want to get to Heaven as fast as we can, but surely, this is not the way.

Amen, brother.

[N/A Gone]

The early athanasian creed states:


QUOTE
"the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."


The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian ("De pud." c. xxi). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:


There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P. G., X, 986).

Ever read Origen? Justin Martyr? How about Anslem DeProcessione, or Augustine's work on the trinity? I can give you a copy of these if you desire sir

[Catholictothecore]

Just know the truth and walk away. Pray. In the short run, you're not going to win.

[kateri05]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174701' date='Jan 24 2007, 08:37 AM']
And yet Peter, the rock that Yeshua built his church on, said -

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of [b]Jesus Christ[/b] for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[/quote]

i don;t know if someone already addressed this, but here goes.

i too had the the same thought, but upon careful analysis, it is clear that st. peter uses this language to distinugiush the baptism of john the baptist from the baptism of christ. in other words, you must be baptized with the baptism commanded by Jesus, the one in the name of the father, son and holy spirit, even if you'd already been baptized by st. john the baptist.

that being said, there are numerous scripture quotations referencing the three Divine Persons in the one God, not to mention the Church Fathers. go read some

[mroger]

In regards to the above post, St. Paul also recognises that there is only One name in Heaven among whom we must be baptized. That name is Jesus Christ. Paul rejects those who would baptize in the name of James or Timothy or even himself.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174686' date='Jan 24 2007, 07:57 AM']
Politely listen to them, point out all the scriptures that say YHWH is one lord, and that Yeshua means YHWH our righteousness, meaning Yeshua isn't a second part of the trinity, and the Holy Ghost is the spirit of YHWH working in our lives, and is not a separate part of YHWH either.
[/quote]

This is no different then the Pauline Heretics [Paul of Samosata] that emphasize God as being one, that God is the single and only ruler. Their name came from their defense of the "Monarchy" or unity of God and were denounced at the Council of Nicea. This is a doctrine that is also ratified by Oneness Penecostal, in which most Evangelicals would agree are heretics and thou these sects claim to be Christian and evangelical, the majority would deny this title.

In order to affirm such a tradition, you have to assume [and declare] that the Council of Nicea is counterfeit.

Reza

[KnightofChrist]

If God is a single person, and not a trinity. Then when God became man Heaven was empty.