What Should A Christian Do If Someone Tells Them There Is A Trinity

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174832' date='Jan 24 2007, 01:36 PM']
I just realized something. Modalists, Arians, Trinitarians, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, and Jews are all part of the Abrahamic traditions. That makes seven. Could it be that these are the seven churches of YHWH on the earth to fight the coming darkness? There are those that YHWH has called out to be warriors for him, to show the light of YHWH into a dark and dying world?
[/quote]


Nope. for the following reasons (assuming the seven churches thingy were valid in the first place):

1. Modalists, Arians, and Trinitarians are not religions, they are heretical theologies, perhaps even cults.

2. Protestants are not a religion - they are divided into thousands of different denominations (not rites - big diff!) all with differing and opposing doctrines

3. Muslims are also violently divided against themselves. the radicals hijacking the name of Islam are more likely to cause darkness in the world than to fight it.

[cmotherofpirl]

[color="#FF0000"]Notice Scripture mentions two distinct PERSONS here.[/color]


! Cor 8:6 6: yet for us there is one [color="#3333FF"]God, the Father[/color], from whom are all things and for whom we exist, [color="#339999"]and one Lord, Jesus Christ[/color], through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

1Cor 15 23: But each in his own order: [color="#33CC00"]Christ [/color] the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
24: Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to [color="#3366FF"]God the Father [/color] after destroying every rule and every authority and power.

Col 1:3: We always thank [color="#3366FF"]God, the Father [/color] of our [color="#009900"]Lord Jesus Christ, [/color] when we pray for you,
17: And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the [color="#009900"]Lord Jesus[/color], giving thanks to [color="#3366FF"]God the Father [/color] through him.

2 John 3:3: Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from [color="#3366FF"]God the Father [/color] and from [color="#009900"]Jesus Christ the Father's Son[/color], in truth and love.
2Peter 1:17: For when he received honor and glory from [color="#3366FF"]God the Father [/color] and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is [color="#009900"]my beloved Son,[/color] with whom I am well pleased,"

[color="#3333FF"]Now we have all three Persons.[/color]

Act 1:7: [color="#009900"]He[/color] said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the [color="#3366FF"]Father [/color] has fixed by his own authority.

8: But you shall receive power when the'> [color="#FFCC33"]Holy Spirit [/color] has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Sama'ria and to the end of the earth."

Act15:7: And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8: And [color="#CC0000"]God[/color] who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the' [color="#FFCC33"]Holy Spirit [/color] just as he did to us;

Luke 1:35: And the angel said to her, "The [color="#FFCC33"]Holy Spirit [/color] will come upon you, and the [color="#FF0000"]power of the Most High [/color] will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy,[color="#33CC00"] the Son of God[/color]

.
Luke3:22: and the'>[color="#FFCC33"] Holy Spirit [/color] descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a [color="#FF0000"]voice came from heaven[/color], "Thou art [color="#33CC00"]my beloved Son[/color]; with thee I am well pleased."


Luke11:13: If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will [color="#FF0000"]the heavenly Fath[/color]er give the'> [color="#FFCC33"]Holy Spirit[/color] to those who ask him!"


Hebrews 10:12: But when [color="#009900"]Christ[/color] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the [color="#CC0000"]right hand of God[/color],
13: then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.
14: For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
15: And the'>[color="#FFCC33"] Holy Spiri[/color]t also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16: "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"
17: then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more."

Mat28:
19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the [color="#CC0000"]Father[/color] and of [color="#009900"]the Son [/color] and of the'> [color="#FFCC33"]Holy Spirit[/color],

[FullTruth]

This debate is unfruitful. They are but idle words that don't need to be talked about.

I have this oneness chip on my shoulder, because I don't believe in the trinity. Most Trinitarians tell me I am wrong all the time. It gets annoying to say the least. I've been programmed like every other religious person out there our way is the only way.

That is why I bring up what my friend said. There will always be seven different portions of the truth, one for seven different churches.

Forgive me for acting out on my chip on my shoulder. I believe the Oneness is truth, but I also believe, and I hope you all believe this as well, When Yeshua comes back he will resolve all doctrine differences in the churches of the Abramhamic religions.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174847' date='Jan 24 2007, 02:44 PM']
This debate is unfruitful. They are but idle words that don't need to be talked about.

I have this oneness chip on my shoulder, because I don't believe in the trinity. Most Trinitarians tell me I am wrong all the time. It gets annoying to say the least. I've been programmed like every other religious person out there our way is the only way.

That is why I bring up what my friend said. There will always be seven different portions of the truth, one for seven different churches.

Forgive me for acting out on my chip on my shoulder. I believe the Oneness is truth, but I also believe, and I hope you all believe this as well, When Yeshua comes back he will resolve all doctrine differences in the churches of the Abramhamic religions.
[/quote]
Hey all I did was quote just some of the Scripture pointing out God is a Trinity of Persons. If you beleive the Bible its in there.
THere is only one Truth, not seven contradictory versions.

[hoosieranna]

If I remember correctly, the original poster is the same one that yammered on about the 13 Illuminati bloodlines and claimed that Pharisees created all "mystery" religions. I'm thinking the poster wants to wind people up with pseudo-philosophical carp. Just my opinion.

[mroger]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174691' date='Jan 24 2007, 10:12 AM']
Someone who follows the Christ in spirit and in truth to the glory of YHWH, who is a spirit.
[/quote]

It doesn't matter if you are Jewish or Jehovah's Witness or whatever, you need to learn real quick that Yahweh is not a spirit. And about the Trinity, check your scripture, bud...when Moses and the Israelites "tapped" the rock for water, the Rock, then, was Jesus Christ too!


[quote]The divisions go on and on because there are a group of very powerful men who want to see humanity divided so they can go unhindered creating the Kingdom of the Anti-Christ, their master.[/quote]

Just what are you talking about dude? It sounds like you think you have some master faith and that Christianity for the last 2,000 was wrong and that it was all built up to take out Christ. Man, is that twisted.

Not only that, but have brought forth some pretty obscure and not so reliable testimony as well as sources - all to your own discredit, which undermines your self-righteous idea of truth. Clearly, you are lacking in the area of truth. Clearly, the content of your mind has been deluded by whatever cult you are a part of.

You said one thing, though, you mentioned "idle talk", it seems you have been taking some cues from Heidegger. Or maybe your "leader guy" is taking cues, I dunno. But if you did read [i]Being and Time[/i], you must recognize that Martin was clearly into his faith, nevermind his disclaimer at the beginning of what he wrote about not trying to "prove the existence of God". He was a man of great faith. Also, he was at disagreement with the Catholic faith, but to the extent that the two departed on the theory of historidcal knowledge.

i'm going off track, here. The point is that for you to make any comment about "idle talk", you must have had some kind of contact with Heidegger, whether direct or in-direct. He is very difficult to understand and his ideas about Dasein, when misunderstood can create havoc. I hope that hasn't happened to you.

After reading most of what you've written, I am sure that wherever you are studying (where is that by the way?) is a mis-interpretation of a mis-interpretation. I'll pray for ya.

Edited January 24, 2007 by geistesswiesenschaften

[mroger]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174701' date='Jan 24 2007, 10:37 AM']
YHWH created us as the Father. YHWH redeems us as the Son. YHWH renews us as the Holy Ghost. YHWH is not three persons, but one spirit who does three things. That is the truth of the Apostles, and if that is the truth of the Apostles, than that is good enough for me.
[/quote]

I don't think you have a clear definition of what Trinity means. One in three. There is only one being. God exists in three persons, but there is only one being, one God. When you see the Holy Spirit, you see God, when you see Jesus, you see God. Don't worry about seeing the face of God without either of the aformentioned because you will not live (that's biblical). Start at the beginning, go back to Genesis: God refers to Godself in the Third Person Plural, "We" and "Us".

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174758' date='Jan 24 2007, 12:27 PM']
No, he said to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and that name is Yeshua, YHWH our righteousness, because YHWH the one undivided spirit is the Father through creation, the Son through redemption, and the Holy Ghost through renewal.
[/quote]

maybe you think you have something to do with that "renewal"?

it's not likely. from what you've written, it appears that you deny Jesus Christ. Who do you say that Jesus is?

[FullTruth]

[quote name='geistesswiesenschaften' post='1174920' date='Jan 24 2007, 04:04 PM']
It doesn't matter if you are Jewish or Jehovah's Witness or whatever, you need to learn real quick that Yahweh is not a spirit. And about the Trinity, check your scripture, bud...when Moses and the Israelites "tapped" the rock for water, the Rock, then, was Jesus Christ too!
Just what are you talking about dude? It sounds like you think you have some master faith and that Christianity for the last 2,000 was wrong and that it was all built up to take out Christ. Man, is that twisted.

Not only that, but have brought forth some pretty obscure and not so reliable testimony as well as sources - all to your own discredit, which undermines your self-righteous idea of truth. Clearly, you are lacking in the area of truth. Clearly, the content of your mind has been deluded by whatever cult you are a part of.

You said one thing, though, you mentioned "idle talk", it seems you have been taking some cues from Heidegger. Or maybe your "leader guy" is taking cues, I dunno. But if you did read [i]Being and Time[/i], you must recognize that Martin was clearly into his faith, nevermind his disclaimer at the beginning of what he wrote about not trying to "prove the existence of God". He was a man of great faith. Also, he was at disagreement with the Catholic faith, but to the extent that the two departed on the theory of historidcal knowledge.

i'm going off track, here. The point is that for you to make any comment about "idle talk", you must have had some kind of contact with Heidegger, whether direct or in-direct. He is very difficult to understand and his ideas about Dasein, when misunderstood can create havoc. I hope that hasn't happened to you.

After reading most of what you've written, I am sure that wherever you are studying (where is that by the way?) is a mis-interpretation of a mis-interpretation. I'll pray for ya.
[/quote]
Who are you talking about?

Cults need more than one person involved in them.

I'm just a lone warrior of Christ.

There is enough evidence out there if you research the Babylonian mystery religions and their corruption of the Jewish Faith. Most of them are in the Bible. Or did YHWH send army after army into the promised lands for fun during the times of the book of Judges?

Or is it a misinterpretation when YHWH said that reason the nation of Israel wanted to be ruled by a King was they didn't wouldn't put the ways and gods of the Egyptians away, and that the desire for a King was a rejection of him and his reign in the lives of the nation of Israel.

These are historical facts, unless the Bible is false.

So we have many pagan influences in many Jews at the time of the Christ, and that, unfortunately resulted in a corruption of Christanity, as Jews who were not Jews - i.e. the Synogogue of Satan - infiltrated the church and corrupted it.

Unfortunately, Satan doesn't play fair. . .

I want everybody to realize we are being brain washed by elites to believe we need Religion and Government and only our religion is the right one. I say dissolve them all and get rid of them, and let Yeshua take the government. Unfortunately, that day hasn't come to us yet. When it does, then Yeshua will teach all of us the right and true doctrine, tesifying what is of him and what is not of him..

The only thing that matters is you declare him lord and bow yourself to him alone. Don't trust anybody, because we are all liars.

And before you say YHWH is not a spirit, need I remind you of Scripture -

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

How then is YHWH not a spirit. You need to check your scripture, and traditions. I have never meet anybody who said that YHWH is not a spirit until you.

[quote name='geistesswiesenschaften' post='1174932' date='Jan 24 2007, 04:19 PM']
I don't think you have a clear definition of what Trinity means. One in three. There is only one being. God exists in three persons, but there is only one being, one God. When you see the Holy Spirit, you see God, when you see Jesus, you see God. Don't worry about seeing the face of God without either of the aformentioned because you will not live (that's biblical). Start at the beginning, go back to Genesis: God refers to Godself in the Third Person Plural, "We" and "Us".
maybe you think you have something to do with that "renewal"?

it's not likely. from what you've written, it appears that you deny Jesus Christ. Who do you say that Jesus is?
[/quote]

Yeshua is Jesus Christ, who is the Christ, the son of the living God.

The Son, after all is YHWH our righteousness.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174942' date='Jan 24 2007, 04:29 PM']
Who are you talking about?

Cults need more than one person involved in them.

I'm just a lone warrior of Christ.

There is enough evidence out there if you research the Babylonian mystery religions and their corruption of the Jewish Faith. Most of them are in the Bible. Or did YHWH send army after army into the promised lands for fun during the times of the book of Judges?

Or is it a misinterpretation when YHWH said that reason the nation of Israel wanted to be ruled by a King was they didn't wouldn't put the ways and gods of the Egyptians away, and that the desire for a King was a rejection of him and his reign in the lives of the nation of Israel.

These are historical facts, unless the Bible is false.

So we have many pagan influences in many Jews at the time of the Christ, and that, unfortunately resulted in a corruption of Christanity, as Jews who were not Jews - i.e. the Synogogue of Satan - infiltrated the church and corrupted it.

Unfortunately, Satan doesn't play fair. . .

I want everybody to realize we are being brain washed by elites to believe we need Religion and Government and only our religion is the right one. I say dissolve them all and get rid of them, and let Yeshua take the government. Unfortunately, that day hasn't come to us yet. When it does, then Yeshua will teach all of us the right and true doctrine, tesifying what is of him and what is not of him..

The only thing that matters is you declare him lord and bow yourself to him alone. Don't trust anybody, because we are all liars.

And before you say YHWH is not a spirit, need I remind you of Scripture -

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

How then is YHWH not a spirit. You need to check your scripture, and traditions. I have never meet anybody who said that YHWH is not a spirit until you.
Yeshua is Jesus Christ, who is the Christ, the son of the living God.

The Son, after all is YHWH our righteousness.
[/quote]
Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. A Son is a PERSON, Just as God the Father is a PERSON. It says so right in the Bible.!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

What should a Christian do? A Christian should acknowledge it as full truth that there is a Trinity.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1174955' date='Jan 24 2007, 04:49 PM']
What should a Christian do? A Christian should acknowledge it as full truth that there is a Trinity.
[/quote]


Well duh .

We can believe, but never fully understand.

[catholic_apologetics]

First, fulltruth, you are mistaken that simply because two beliefs are similar that one comes from another. Your premise and reasoning are both erroneous. Simply because the Trinity is difficult to understand does not make it erroneous. In your attempt to completely figure God out, you've lead yourself on a path of destruction. You believe that the Trinity denies reason because you believe that Trinitarian theology gives God multiple personalities. Quite the opposite, modalism states there is one God with multiple personalities. Jesus unequivocally stated that He is "I AM". There is no doubt that Jesus is God, yet there is also no doubt scripturally that Jesus is not the Father. If Jesus is the person of the Father as you would assert than Jesus has lost his mind stating that He is not the Father. Rather, the doctrine of the Trinity. It rather makes much more sense to understand God as the God knows himself, and as every Christian, even those in Protestant communities have understood his self-revelation. God is truly three persons in one divine nature. There are not three gods. There is not one god who has three split personalities. There is one God and only one God who exists in three divine persons.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174847' date='Jan 24 2007, 02:44 PM']I believe the Oneness is truth, but I also believe, and I hope you all believe this as well, When Yeshua comes back he will resolve all doctrine differences in the churches of the Abramhamic religions.
[/quote]In the meantime, Yeshua leaves us to guess what's true? Or to believe anything our interpretation of the Scriptures leads us to? Is He the Truth, the Way, and the Life as He claimed to be, or isn't He?

Yeshua (Joshua, Jesus) didn't leave us orphans. He preserved His Church -- the Church He founded for the salvation of the world, the Church who is His spotless Bride, His very Body, the Church that wrote the New Testament -- from teaching error.

The Church (not the Bible) is "the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth" 1 Timothy 3:15.

Jay

-----------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

God is One and God is Three.

God is one because there can be no division in God. Naturally, if there was division in God, there would be three supreme beings. There can only be one supreme Being.

God is three because God is love. Love requires a lover and a lovee. Creation is not a sufficient recipient of God's love because creation can never receive God entirely. Therefore, the lovee must be eternal, like the Father. This means that there are at least two Persons in one Godhead. The love itself, that self-gift from God, is also a Person, because if the Father gives His whole self, then the flow of being from Father to Son must have the whole nature of the Father (this is why the Holy Spirit is always seen in Scripture as wind; He flows and moves in love; He is animate; He is the Lord, the Giver of Life).

Furthermore, we know that "Father" and "Son" are relational terms. One person cannot be in relation with himself. Two persons can have a relationship.

Further, the Son is the Word of the Father. He is the one eternal utterance of God. Just as any speech comes from what is inside the speaker, so the Son comes from inside His Father. Just as words express the person who speaks, so the Son expresses the Father, but where human nature fails, divine nature succeeds. The Son perfectly expresses His Father and thus has all that His Father has.

Now, this seems that we are saying that there are three separate beings, but this is not true. There is one being. The being, the essence, the nature of the Father is what the Father gives the Son. Therefore, there is one nature, one divinity which both Father and Son have at once. Note that this can only happen if the two dwell within one another, as Christ said, "that I am in you and you are in me, Father...that we are one." Jesus was not praying to Himself.

This is why we say: the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet the Father is not the Son, nor the Son the Holy Spirit, nor the Holy Spirit the Father, yet they are all of the same essence and nature, but distinct because of their relationships. A human father has children with a human mother, but God needs no human mother to have a Son. Therefore, while a human child only has half of his father's genes, because he also has his mother's, the Son of God has all of His Father's Nature, the divine Nature, and is all that His Father is, yet He is not His Father.

Thus God spoke in the beginning, saying, "we shall make man in our image," using the plural. Thus also, as part of man's nature, in order to image God all the more, God made man a social creature and gave Adam a wife, Eve. God wished to have a relationship also with creation and, in the fulness of time, sent His Son to be born of a woman. His Son, His eternal offspring, was thus the firstborn of all creation. God has a relationship with us so that we might have a relationship with Him. God makes creation, particularly the Church, His spouse. So we see that just as there is relationship within the Godhead and relationship within creation, so there is relationship between God and man and relationship between man and God, so that the relationship in God is fully reflected and fully manifested in creation and so that the relationship between God and man is brought to completion, to total intimacy, so that each possible connection is fulfilled. So the Son pours out His Blood upon the Cross for man, just as the Father pours Himself out to the Son, so that in return, just as a man pours out himself to his wife, so mankind may pour itself out to God in Christ. You should see, then, how the self-gift is made all around and is a mark of God's love. God became man to enable us to love like this. The Father pours out Himself to the Son, the Son pours Himself back. The Son pours out Himself to mankind, mankind pours itself back. The Son pours out mankind to the Father. In other words, the Son eternally pours Himself out the the Father, but, having become man and having died to claim man and having received man, the Son may now also pour man out to God in the very gift of Himself, for He has bound man to Himself in the Church. The entire dynamic of salvation is meant to mirror the Trinity's self-giving love. If God is not a Trinity, but only one, then this intimacy cannot exist, nor this self-gift. If God is not a Trinity, then there can be no love, but only coldness, rigidness, and harsh immutability. If God is not a Trinity, then there can be no Incarnation. If God is not a Trinity, then there can be no creation or redemption.

God is Tri-une, Three in One.

[viking]

From Catholic.com

Is "Jehovah" God’s Name?


In Reasoning From the Scriptures the WTS teaches that "Jehovah" is the proper pronunciation of God’s name, and so "Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved" (Rom. 10:13). They continue, "Many scholars favor the spelling ‘Yahweh,’ but it is uncertain and there is not agreement among them. On the other hand, ‘Jehovah’ is the form of the name that is most readily recognized, because it has been used in English for centuries . . . " (p. 195).

However, the JWs’ own Aid to Bible Understanding says, "The first recorded use of this form [Jehovah] dates from the 13th century C.E. [after Christ]. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican order, used it in his book Pugeo Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favor ‘Yahweh’ as the most likely pronunciation" (pp. 884-885).

New Testament Greek always uses the word "Lord," and never "Jehovah," even in quotes from the Old Testament (OT). Encyclopedia Judaica, Webster’s Encyclopedia, Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Britannica, Universal Jewish Encyclopedia and countless others agree that the title "Jehovah" is erroneous, grammatically impossible, and was never used by the Jews.