Eens

[dairygirl4u2c]

StThom.. what are your views of "outside the catholic church there is no salvation"? Some historical quotes to that matter are below for reference. Do you believe that all who are not physically adherents to the Church will be damned?

[quote]Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam (1302): "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Pope Pelagius II (578-590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church" (Denzinger, 469).

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved" (Denzinger 792).

Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum: "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ... For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'"

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter: "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved."

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, 8: "Well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff"; also: Talk Singulari quadam: "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood" (early editions of Denzinger, 1647; omitted in later editions).

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus: "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."[/quote]

[Resurrexi]

I believe exactly what our Holy Mother the Church teaches about how none can be saved outside of her, which can be found in the Catechism of St. Pius X:

[quote name='The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X']27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q. How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?
A. The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

Does that implicit desire for baptism extend only to those who desire to become catholic, like those in the RCIA?
Or does it extend also to, say a muslim who has never heard of the CC ?

[Paddington]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1174521' date='Jan 24 2007, 02:08 AM']
Does that implicit desire for baptism extend only to those who desire to become catholic, like those in the RCIA?
Or does it extend also to, say a muslim who has never heard of the CC ?
[/quote]

It was in the Catholic Q & A section here that somebody outside can be saved "if they have never heard the gospel." It was left just like that. But I remember another Catholic answer here that expanded on that to be more inclusive. It said that people can hear the gospel in a disordered way. Or something. Also, I wonder what "hearing the gospel" constitutes. It seems vague to me.

[ronyodish]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says the following:

[quote]"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

[b]846[/b] How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

[b]847[/b] This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

[b]848[/b] "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
[/quote]

God bless,

Rony

[Aloysius]

it all comes down to whether or not they are culpable for not being within the Catholic Church. if they are not culpable, then they may be saved if they follow their God-given conscience with an implicit desire for what it is God has planned for them (which is the Church; so they desire what they do not know they desire)

in the end, only God can judge culpability. we are not to presume the salvation of anyone outside the visible confines of the Church, thereby taking seriously our divine mandate to convert all nations with the incentive that it's the only sureewaa we know for the salvation of their soul. all this theoreticc stuff about non-Catholics is just that-- theoretical. if they are not culpable for the sin of being outside the Church, then they are not going to be damned for it. beyond that: we do not know what God does with them. for all we know, He could send them to Limbo as traditional theological terms understand it... or maybe some limbo no with parameters no human theologian has yet imagined; or maybe some second chance lifeon some distant star (with their self-same bodies, of course, albweit recreated, because we know that the body is not just a vessel but an integral part of the hessence of a person)... or maybe God saves them by some extraordinary means.

we don't know. we declare theoretical possibilities: but we must remember that they are just that so that we never water down the sacrd mission of the Church as the sole means of salvation.

oh, and it is important to note, all ssalvation will come through the Church in some way. no one is saved except by being joined to the Church Christ founded, the Catholic Church. All of these theoretical propositions ought to kepe in mind that thgraces are still offerred to thatporion oomanty throughthe lense of the church.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1174521' date='Jan 23 2007, 09:38 PM']
Does that implicit desire for baptism extend only to those who desire to become catholic, like those in the RCIA?
Or does it extend also to, say a muslim who has never heard of the CC ?
[/quote]

I would say "and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism" extends only to non-Catholics who have been baptised and catechumans (who both, of course, have to be invincibly ignorant and truth-seekers who follow the natural law to be on the way to salvation)

I would not condemn someone who thought that "and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism" could extend to a Mohammedan who has never heard of the Catholic Church.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1175484' date='Jan 25 2007, 12:44 AM']
I would not condemn someone who thought that "and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism" could extend to a Mohammedan who has never heard of the Catholic Church.
[/quote]
Good, because Catholic teaching says that God doesn't create life simply to destroy it.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1175493' date='Jan 24 2007, 10:48 PM']
Good, because Catholic teaching says that God doesn't create life simply to destroy it.
[/quote]

Catholic teaching is that if you are not united to the Body of the Church, you must by united to the Soul of the Church to hope be saved. Nowadays, the only way to be united to the soul of he Church if by invincible ignorance, so there probably are many who do not go to heaven. Moreover, Heaven is a free gift from God that we in no way deserve and without the Redemption, all the good people would go to Limbo and all bad people (who would be far more numerous if it weren't for the Church) would go to hell.

Edited January 25, 2007 by StThomasMore

[thessalonian]

[quote]the only way to be united to the soul of he Church if by invincible ignorance,[/quote]

Ignorance does not unite. It only exuses. Truth and knowledge of truth is what unites. Anyone who is united to the truth is united not by their ignorance. Their ignorance only excuses their error.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1175870' date='Jan 25 2007, 11:45 AM']
Ignorance does not unite. It only exuses. Truth and knowledge of truth is what unites. Anyone who is united to the truth is united not by their ignorance. Their ignorance only excuses their error.
[/quote]

[quote name='The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X']29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation[/quote]

Invincible ignorance/being a catechuman (those are the only reasons I can think of that anyone can be outside of the Church through no fault of his own) and having received Baptism/having the implicit desire of Baptism, along with seeking the truth and following God's will to the best of your extent [i]does[/i] unite one to the soul of the Church.

[thessalonian]

You can never admit a mistake can you? Where in the scriptures does it say "ignorance will set you free"? Noone is united by ignorance.

[dairygirl4u2c]

If they can be saved who are ignorant, wouldn't they have to also be united? If they are saved by the CC, wouldn't they then be united?

Maybe not, but that's my first impression.



StThom.. do you believe the hypothetical muslim who hasn't heard is damned, or that the CC just has not ruled on the issue? (and the QandA quote you offered to me is limited simply to affirming that the catechumen can be saved)

You mention that invincible ignorance thing as if you think it at least may be possible. But if you think that, how do you reconcile that it's only possible with the following?
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).

Edited January 26, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Guest JeffCR07]

Thessalonian, St. Thomas, it doesn't appear that this "argument" (if it can even be called one) is helping or benefiting either of you, nor does it seem that it is being done with a spirit of charity.

StThomas, Thess is technically correct since it is not ignorance that is the efficient cause of the salvation, but rather, the grace and mercy of God, through Jesus Christ, is the efficient cause of salvation and invincible ignorance merely constitutes a sufficient (but not necessary) condition for the dispensation of that grace.

Thessalonian, you are smart enough to have known what StThomas was trying to say, and to know that what he was getting at is perfectly correct: it is possible for the invincibly ignorant to, by the mercy of God, attain salvation. Sometimes I wonder whether the "I do not represent the Church" label under StThomas' name moves people to be more critical and harsh with him then he deserves.

I suggest this argument be dropped in favor of a more productive and charity-guided discussion.


***


dairy, its good to see you again, I haven't been on one of your threads in a while, I hope you're doing well.

While I won't presume to speak for StThomas, I can give you my response since it appears that his opinion and mine are close to one another. If you will note the last phrase in the text you quoted from Lumen Gentium, you will see that it says "those too [i]may[/i] achieve eternal salvation." This is a critical point, since it does not say that they [i]will[/i], only that they [i]may[/i]. Because the invincibly ignorant are not visibly united to the Church, the possibility for their salvation is dependent upon a number of factors (the state of their souls, the degree of their knowledge, the mercy of God, etc.) which cannot be known by anyone other than God Himself. Thus, we cannot be [i]certain[/i] of the salvation of anyone who is outside the visible Church, though we can retain the hope that "those too [i]may[/i] achieve eternal salvation." What are we to do in light of such ignorance? We are to preach, witness, evangelize, and pray for the conversion of their souls, for the fear that our hearts feel for the sake of our brothers and sisters will only be laid to rest when [i]they[/i] have come to rest in the Church.

Yours in Christ,

Jeff

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]I would not condemn someone who thought that "and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism" could extend to a Mohammedan who has never heard of the Catholic Church.[/quote]

stthom... did you say this because you think they cannot be saved... or because you think that that particular passage was limited only to catechumens and wasn't implying anything else?

Edited January 26, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c