What Is The Worst Heresy?

[BurkeFan]

Everyone always forgets about monothelitism / monoenergism.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='traichuoi' post='1174778' date='Jan 24 2007, 01:40 PM']
Way to go on being an "effective" sharer of Truth. In case you didn't catch it, I was being rather sarcastic.

In your attempt to "explain" the faith (which was done without understanding or compassion) you have put judgment on a soul who you have yet to understand why they reject the dogma of the Trinity. Try to dialogue and ask why they believe in such a way and you might be more successful in your attempt to share Truth.
What is your understanding of the Trinity?
[/quote]
I understand the trinity as this.

YHWH is not a trinity of persons, but a trinity of action, thought and love.

YHWH shows his love as the father because he adopts all those who he calls.

YHWH shows his thoughts as the son, showing humanity how to live a submissive life to him.

YHWH shows his strength as the Holy Ghost, working in our world to renew humans by breathing his spirit into their flesh, re-establishing our union with him once again.

So I believe in a trinity, but not a trinity of persons.

Modalism has it's holes though, as does Trinitarism and Arianism.

One good example of a hole for Trinitarism is this.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

How can the Christ live in Paul, except that the Holy Ghost live in Paul, and the Holy Ghost be the Christ? Does not that make the Holy Ghost and the Christ the same?

One could say, that he is living a crucified life, he emulates Christ of course. But the scripture says Paul isn't emulating, but Christ was living in him.

From a Modalists perspective, we have YHWH living in Paul, making Paul a new creature.

Here is a hole for both Trinitarians and Arains. The translation of Spirit in Hebrew and Greek say breath and wind, not person. So if the Holy Ghost is not a person, but the breath of YHWH, that puts a hole in their beliefs.

That is why YHWH breathed on us and made us a living soul. His spirit is an action in our world, not a person.

A hole for Modalism would be this -

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46.

Another good proof of Modalism in the 1,000 year rule of the Christ.

If 1st Samuel says that having any King on the throne of Israel that in't YHWH is a rejection of YHWH as the king of Israel, then when Yeshua comes and reigns, a Modalist can say, from their perspective, YHWH finally gets his desire, to be a King over all of Israel and the world.

Though I wouldn't dismiss the idea of three persons, because there are scriptures that suggest that as well, as there is scriptures that Arians will use to say that either side is wrong as well, because of the submissiveness of Yeshua to YHWH, making Yeshua under YHWH.

A modalist would say, but Yeshua is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, so if there is two different beings how can Yeshua be above the father. A modalist has no problem with this scripture because a Modalist says, Yeshua, which means YHWH our saving cry, or simply put YHWH our salvation shows that Yeshua is a revealed name of YHWH. Therefor, Yeshua is not above the father because he is the father, because YHWH manifested himself in our world, but did not say so, because the YHWH wanted us to learn humility. The creator of the entire universe came to us, and then wouldn't say he was the creator, but allows other to do so.

In a world with braggarts and show boats, such a lesson should be very welcomed. The creator made himself of no report to allow others to say, the creator was here. YHWH was here. And YHWH has become our salvation.

Now there is another Translation for Yeshua, The Lord our salvation. I would have one question though? Is not the translation of YHWH mean The Lord? So was this one more step taken to translate or not?

So there are a whole bunch of holes in all of our doctrines, and that makes no doctrine perfect.

All doctrines will finally be revealed unto us when Christ comes back.

Edited January 27, 2007 by FullTruth

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Proud2BCatholic139' post='1176069' date='Jan 25 2007, 06:09 PM']
I beleive if you deny the Holy Spirit after being recieved into the church at Confirmation is the gravest sin you can commit. Sinning against the Holy Spirit, as I read, that sin can not be forgiven.
[/quote]
Let me actually give you a life saving rebuke.

Sinning against the Holy Ghost is not denying having it.

Sinning against the Holy Ghost is recieving it, and after that, turning back to Satan.

I would like to show two scriptures that show this very clearly.



But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. Acts 5:1-10.

Yeshua said, you will choose YHWH or Mammon.

So after you believe, and you choose Mammon, materialism, therefore Satan again, and sin against a man of YHWH by committing sin for your own gain, that is a sin against the Holy Ghost.

Ananias and his wife choose materalism, and lied about it to the Apostles. They made Satan the authority over them again, and they died because of it, making it an unforgivable sin, where there is no chance for repentance.

[FullTruth]

Doh, why did it post twice.

Edited January 27, 2007 by FullTruth

[RezaMikhaeil]

I think that you've got to realize that each of these are "interconnected" in several methods. Such as Penecostalism [protestanism] is just a knock-off of Montanism [Tertullian's seperating factor], that One-ness Penecostalism [Protestantism] is a knock off of the Pauline Heresy that was suppressed and denounced at Nicea [first council], that some of the protestant doctrines of not baptising children [babies], claiming that they havn't chosen Jesus Christ and don't have the knowledge of him, so they aren't "truely saved" is a know-off of gnosticism's "hidden knowledge" theory, that one has to have a "secrete knowledge or understanding of God" in order to be saved.

It's almost impossible to pick which one is "more heretical", because history just repeats itself, but I'd go with Protestantism because of it's interconnection to past heresies, thou I wouldn't go as far as saying that Protestants [all] are heretics because most are simply confused and genuinely love Jesus Christ, genuinely want to serve him and genuinely want to belong to his true church but are simply confused. St. John Chrysostom made it very clear that we shouldn't condemn those that are confused by referring to them as "heretics" but should just condemn those ideologies as "heresies". [paraphrased]

Reza

I think that you've got to realize that each of these are "interconnected" in several methods. Such as Penecostalism [protestanism] is just a knock-off of Montanism [Tertullian's seperating factor], that One-ness Penecostalism [Protestantism] is a knock off of the Pauline Heresy that was suppressed and denounced at Nicea [first council], that some of the protestant doctrines of not baptising children [babies], claiming that they havn't chosen Jesus Christ and don't have the knowledge of him, so they aren't "truely saved" is a know-off of gnosticism's "hidden knowledge" theory, that one has to have a "secrete knowledge or understanding of God" in order to be saved.

It's almost impossible to pick which one is "more heretical", because history just repeats itself, but I'd go with Protestantism because of it's interconnection to past heresies, thou I wouldn't go as far as saying that Protestants [all] are heretics because most are simply confused and genuinely love Jesus Christ, genuinely want to serve him and genuinely want to belong to his true church but are simply confused. St. John Chrysostom made it very clear that we shouldn't condemn those that are confused by referring to them as "heretics" but should just condemn those ideologies as "heresies". [paraphrased]

Reza

[prose]

gnoticism.

[SJRod55]

Modernism has my vote

[Paddington]

"men who are guilty of it, are seldom or never converted"

I don't like the sound of that "seldom." I mean, if it means that the conversion can not result in final salvation.

Can somebody please elaborate?