Evictions & European Monasteries

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1175857' date='Jan 25 2007, 01:17 PM']
My point is that if we are going to truly be catholic, universal, the fall of the West shouldn't matter to us.

[color="#3366FF"]Ah, thats fine unless you happen to live there.[/color]

We should think of Christianity as our heritage...not anything based on the culture we accidentally happened to be raised in, the continent our ancestors are from, or the color of our skin.

[color="#3333FF"]My heritage and ancestors IS christian.[/color]


I sometimes get scary feelings of "white nationalism" when Catholics start acting concerned about Islam overrunning Europe. Yes, there are a lot of great churches that stand to be destroyed. It's sad...but that's just architecture (though I would certainly start shipping the Relics somewhere safer if things get much worse, and perhaps as much of the art as is moveable).
[color="#3333FF"]
Forget about the architecture, what about all the people?? Tell me how free christians are going to be in an islamic europe??[/color]

I don't really care about preserving the "european cultural heritage" or anything, and it disturbs me a little to see the Pope fighting for it...because I wonder what, for example, the syro-malabar catholics think of that. The Pope is the spokesman of Christianity, not "european civilization". Yeah, it was great in its heyday, but if it's over, it's over. I feel no necessary attachment to it, and no need to fight for it just because of the circumstances of my birth. We'll never forget what it gave us; the art, the Saints, the literature, the theology, the science, the technology, the philosophy, the politics. But it's time to move on. Europe-America has left its mark, no doubt, for better or worse, on all parts of the world. If it dies now, I don't care.

[color="#3333FF"]You should care if you claim to be catholic.
Catholics are traditionalists. You are blithely throwing away 2000 years of christianity by that statement.[/color]
[/quote]

[Piamaria]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1174724' date='Jan 24 2007, 09:19 AM']
I went to a talk by Father Joseph Fessio last night. He said there are people who actually think that there is a good chance of Muslims dominating China in the near future, but he said there is not really any substantial proof at the moment.

His talk was on Pope Benedict XVI's papacy and the issues he is facing in the world and how he is dealing with them. A primary issue, of course, is the Muslims (as everyone knows).

Lauren
[/quote]

I know this is off topic but isn't Fr. Fessio Awesome. I have Sister-friend in at USF and you wouldn't believe how much Fr. Fessio has been persecuted for his fidelity and orthodoxy.

Back to topic.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1175857' date='Jan 25 2007, 12:17 PM']
My point is that if we are going to truly be catholic, universal, the fall of the West shouldn't matter to us.

We should think of Christianity as our heritage...not anything based on the culture we accidentally happened to be raised in, the continent our ancestors are from, or the color of our skin.

I want the [u]Church[/u] to survive. I don't care about anything else. I don't care about the survival of "my" caucasian race. I don't care about the survival of "my" anglo-american culture. I don't care about my family name being preserved.

I sometimes get scary feelings of "white nationalism" when Catholics start acting concerned about Islam overrunning Europe. Yes, there are a lot of great churches that stand to be destroyed. It's sad...but that's just architecture (though I would certainly start shipping the Relics somewhere safer if things get much worse, and perhaps as much of the art as is moveable). Those things [i]essential[/i] to the faith will be preserved somewhere in the world. In South America. And the faith is rising in Africa. And I bet it will rise in the East.

I don't really care about preserving the "european cultural heritage" or anything, and it disturbs me a little to see the Pope fighting for it...because I wonder what, for example, the syro-malabar catholics think of that. The Pope is the spokesman of Christianity, not "european civilization". Yeah, it was great in its heyday, but if it's over, it's over. I feel no necessary attachment to it, and no need to fight for it just because of the circumstances of my birth. We'll never forget what it gave us; the art, the Saints, the literature, the theology, the science, the technology, the philosophy, the politics. But it's time to move on. Europe-America has left its mark, no doubt, for better or worse, on all parts of the world. If it dies now, I don't care.
[/quote] Actually, you make a very good point. It's the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ that matters, not preserving a culture. I totally get what you're saying. Otherwise, it almost does seem like "white nationalism" or something like that.

But what cmotherofpirl is saying is totally correct - [i]hello, what about the people?[/i] Your statement in that you don't care about the West is totally uncatholic. Preserving a culture of Christianity is incredibly important - and it is a very great means to serve an end - that is the salvation of peoples' souls. And I totally agree with her statement that you are blithely throwing away 2000 years of Christianity by that statement.

I do totally get your point - the Church is our spiritual heritage that greatly transends any human culture - we are fighting for THE CHURCH to survive.

But listen, preserving the European culture of Christianity is important. The Holy Father knows He is not the spokesman for European Civilization, but for the Church. He acts in the mind of the Church in trying to preserve Christian Europe, and we shouldn't question it.

We talk about things these days like the culture of life, etc. Preserving a culture is preserving the how people live their lives. I think it's incredibly important to try to wake the West up out of their spiritual death, and a huge part of their identity throughout the centuries that has been fought even to death by their own ancestors that they are mindlessly throwing away, for nothing. It's so sad that a whole continent steeped in Christianity for centuries would spiritually die because of materialism and moderism, etc. We can't say we don't care about that. Holy Mother Church cares for all her children.

I don't think the Holy Father's focus on the West is taking away from Christianity growing in the East. I think the Eastern churches care very much about the welfare of the people in the West. I don't think they feel neglected by the Holy Father trying to preserve the Christian heritage of Europe - I just really don't think so. Last year I spent several months with some CMC sisters ( Carmelites )of the Syro-Malabar rite. They care very much about the West, and are spread all over Europe and America, mostly as teachers or nurses.

Yes, what is important is the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, eternal life. But preserving the European culture of Christianity is a means to serve this end, for a whole continent of people.

Edited January 25, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

But again, batteddy does make a good point, even he made some uncatholic statements. I think he's talking generally here though. I mean if a country like France has become so modernistic and doesn't even double it's own population, they almost deserve to be taken over by the Muslims. The Church definitely has to try to stop this, and is, and so many great orders like Bethlehem & St. John are still coming out of France, but if Christianity is dying out there and in Europe in general, that's their problem. It's their choice. As Jesus said, if they do not welcome you, shake the dust from your feet. I don't mean that I don't care about their spiritual death and the end of a great Catholic culture, but you get what I mean. I think that's along the same lines as what batteddy is getting at (though I would never say, I don't care, I'm very much in agreement with cmotherofpirl on this). But let the Word of God fall on good soil then. The Church remains, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her.

But actually, I started this thread because I'm wondering about this evictions thing, and the future of European monasteries, particulary France, really. I am wondering if it would not be a good idea to consider joining a monastery in particularly France, as it could possibly become very insecure in days to come there. The Sisters of Bethlehem have several monasteries in France. The Carthusians have two. Anyway, everything's up to the Lord. Maybe His will is actually for me to be with the Poor Clares right here in Lemont, who are awesome ...

[quote name='Pia' post='1175949' date='Jan 25 2007, 02:31 PM']
I know this is off topic but isn't Fr. Fessio Awesome. I have Sister-friend in at USF and you wouldn't believe how much Fr. Fessio has been persecuted for his fidelity and orthodoxy.

Back to topic.
[/quote] No problem for being off topic. I've never heard him speak, but heard he is great. That's cool how Lauren went to see him.

Edited January 25, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[philosophette]

My only concern in the US would be the improper use of "immanent domain" which has been used by Corps like Wal-Mart to seize property.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1176041' date='Jan 25 2007, 04:14 PM']
But again, batteddy does make a good point, even he made some uncatholic statements. I think he's talking generally here though. I mean if a country like France has become so modernistic and doesn't even [i][b]maintain[/b] [/i] (I mean, not double ) it's own population, they almost deserve to be taken over by the Muslims ...
[/quote]

[Chiquitunga]

But again, I wanted to say, I definitely care and pray that France and all of Europe is not taken over my the Muslims. My gosh, that would be terrible! Actually during the French Revolution all the Carthusian houses of nuns were closed in the late 1700's. But then in 1816 there was a revival, and now there are 2 houses in France, 2 in Italy, 1 in Spain, and now actually a foundation in South Korea ..

[batteddy]

[quote]And I totally agree with her statement that you are blithely throwing away 2000 years of Christianity by that statement.[/quote]

No. The theology, prayer, literature, history, liturgy etc. of those 2000 years would be preserved. Just not a certain locality, style of dress accidental to religion, languages etc. Everyone dies. Is Christianity therefore "untraditional" because its current followers have only been around (at the oldest) about 100 years? No. The traditional IDEAS would survive. But I don't think the geographic location or race of the people has anything to do with tradition. Afterall, we don't speak Old English anymore even though we did 1200 years ago. Therefore, I don't really care if modern English disappears either.

[quote]But listen, preserving the European culture of Christianity is important. The Holy Father knows He is not the spokesman for European Civilization, but for the Church. He acts in the mind of the Church in trying to preserve Christian Europe, and we shouldn't question it. [/quote]

There is hardly a "christian europe" anymore. The center-of-mass of Catholicism is now Central and South America (though there is some shoring up against the evangelicals we need to do there). Christian Europe cannot be saved because Christendom has ceased to exist and Europe is heavily Secular. We would need to RE-create a Christian Europe. But is RE-creating the past really worth our energy, or if the circumstances are more favorable in South America and Africa...shouldn't we concentrate our energies there? Of course, the Church would mission everywhere, even Europe. But perhaps its time to admit it is (in the general sense, not in the case of the individual souls) a lost cause and find a new culture.

There is nothing essential about the culture. Obviously, Catholic culture has changed many times from Roman, to Midieval Germanic, to Italian Renaissance, to heavily Hispanic. If it's next stage is Chinese, or African...why hold on to it? When the barbarians invaded Rome, the Church didn't fight desperately to preserve Latin as the vernacular, keep togas as everyday clothes, or demand that Roman architecture be the style. So when Muslim hordes enter Europe...well, we'll try to convert them while also investing in more promising parts of the world...but I don't think we should spend our time trying to save something dying. Decadence means decay. Rome fell, the Church survived and built a new midieval germanic culture. If Modern Europe dies...well, we'll be able to build a culture out of whatever comes next or else find one somewhere else. At a certain point it is Europe's choice...as you said, shake the dust off your shoes. It seems that fig tree is cursed to wither.

Also, about the "people" being hurt...the presumption is that Europe would BECOME Muslim. The "people" left would be largely secularists and would die out quickly due to their birth control.

I'd rather have a Europe full of devout muslims than devout european atheists.

Edited January 26, 2007 by batteddy

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1177084' date='Jan 26 2007, 07:16 PM']
No. The theology, prayer, literature, history, liturgy etc. of those 2000 years would be preserved. Just not a certain locality, style of dress accidental to religion, languages etc. Everyone dies. Is Christianity therefore "untraditional" because its current followers have only been around (at the oldest) about 100 years? No. The traditional IDEAS would survive. But I don't think the geographic location or race of the people has anything to do with tradition. Afterall, we don't speak Old English anymore even though we did 1200 years ago. Therefore, I don't really care if modern English disappears either.



There is hardly a "christian europe" anymore. The center-of-mass of Catholicism is now Central and South America (though there is some shoring up against the evangelicals we need to do there). Christian Europe cannot be saved because Christendom has ceased to exist and Europe is heavily Secular. We would need to RE-create a Christian Europe. But is RE-creating the past really worth our energy, or if the circumstances are more favorable in South America and Africa...shouldn't we concentrate our energies there? Of course, the Church would mission everywhere, even Europe. But perhaps its time to admit it is (in the general sense, not in the case of the individual souls) a lost cause and find a new culture.

There is nothing essential about the culture. Obviously, Catholic culture has changed many times from Roman, to Midieval Germanic, to Italian Renaissance, to heavily Hispanic. If it's next stage is Chinese, or African...why hold on to it? When the barbarians invaded Rome, the Church didn't fight desperately to preserve Latin as the vernacular, keep togas as everyday clothes, or demand that Roman architecture be the style. So when Muslim hordes enter Europe...well, we'll try to convert them while also investing in more promising parts of the world...but I don't think we should spend our time trying to save something dying. Decadence means decay. Rome fell, the Church survived and built a new midieval germanic culture. If Modern Europe dies...well, we'll be able to build a culture out of whatever comes next or else find one somewhere else. At a certain point it is Europe's choice...as you said, shake the dust off your shoes. It seems that fig tree is cursed to wither.

Also, about the "people" being hurt...the presumption is that Europe would BECOME Muslim. The "people" left would be largely secularists and would die out quickly due to their birth control.

I'd rather have a Europe full of devout muslims than devout european atheists.
[/quote]
Praise God its in His hands and certainly not yours! How terrible!!!

[Chiquitunga]

This is off topic, but cmotherofpirl, I absolutely love your signature! The prayer in it is beautiful! St Patrick, pray for us! and pray for Ireland & all of Europe!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1177084' date='Jan 26 2007, 06:16 PM']No. The theology, prayer, literature, history, liturgy etc. of those 2000 years would be preserved. Just not a certain locality, style of dress accidental to religion, languages etc. Everyone dies. Is Christianity therefore "untraditional" because its current followers have only been around (at the oldest) about 100 years? No. The traditional IDEAS would survive. But I don't think the geographic location or race of the people has anything to do with tradition. Afterall, we don't speak Old English anymore even though we did 1200 years ago. Therefore, I don't really care if modern English disappears either.[/quote] Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
[quote]
There is hardly a "christian europe" anymore. The center-of-mass of Catholicism is now Central and South America (though there is some shoring up against the evangelicals we need to do there).[/quote] Yes, you're right there is, as the Protestants have a lot of missions themselves. And this can be rather confusing for someone just coming into Christianity, as Christ prayed that we may be one, and yet, we are not at all.
[quote]Christian Europe cannot be saved because Christendom has ceased to exist and Europe is heavily Secular. We would need to RE-create a Christian Europe. But is RE-creating the past really worth our energy, or if the circumstances are more favorable in South America and Africa...shouldn't we concentrate our energies there? Of course, the Church would mission everywhere, even Europe. But perhaps its time to admit it is (in the general sense, not in the case of the individual souls) a lost cause and find a new culture.[/quote] Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, as you said, the Church should continue to mission anywhere. I rather believe, to be honest, that God is going to be sending something pretty soon that's going to bring everyone to their knees ...[quote]
There is nothing essential about the culture. Obviously, Catholic culture has changed many times from Roman, to Midieval Germanic, to Italian Renaissance, to heavily Hispanic. If it's next stage is Chinese, or African...why hold on to it? When the barbarians invaded Rome, the Church didn't fight desperately to preserve Latin as the vernacular, keep togas as everyday clothes, or demand that Roman architecture be the style. So when Muslim hordes enter Europe...well, we'll try to convert them while also investing in more promising parts of the world...but I don't think we should spend our time trying to save something dying. Decadence means decay. Rome fell, the Church survived and built a new midieval germanic culture. If Modern Europe dies...well, we'll be able to build a culture out of whatever comes next or else find one somewhere else. At a certain point it is Europe's choice...as you said, shake the dust off your shoes. It seems that fig tree is cursed to wither.

Also, about the "people" being hurt...the presumption is that Europe would BECOME Muslim. The "people" left would be largely secularists and would die out quickly due to their birth control.

I'd rather have a Europe full of devout muslims than devout european atheists.
[/quote] At least Muslims believe in God and try to serve Him, that is true, though they are mistaken in many ways. But I wouldn't want a continent full of extremist Muslims plotting to destroy America or Christians everywhere. But again, I really believe God is at work these days in particular to bring a stop to a lot of things, and usher in the Reign of His Beloved Son in the hearts of mankind .. Maranatha, Come Lord Jesus!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1177084' date='Jan 26 2007, 06:16 PM']
There is nothing essential about the culture. Obviously, Catholic culture has changed many times from Roman, to Midieval Germanic, to Italian Renaissance, to heavily Hispanic.
[/quote]Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. The culture is not a part of our Faith.

But what do you think about this evictions/persecutions thing for European monasteries? I guess it's pretty likely something like this could start happening. I'm just wondering personally, if it would be a wise idea or not to join a monastery over there, if it's going to start getting pretty insecure. Though, it's up to God's will in the end .. Anyway, Jesus did warn us of persecutions ..

Edited January 27, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[batteddy]

[quote]But I wouldn't want a continent full of extremist Muslims plotting to destroy America or Christians everywhere.[/quote]

Why do you care if they're plotting to "destroy America". Let go. America was an okay place in it's heyday. But if it has internally weakened itself through decadence, perhaps it's time to jump ship. I identify with a Religion, not a Nation-State.

There already is a continent full of Muslims, basically. Though they would increase numerically through natural birth in this scenario, that would happen anyway. It's not like another billion Muslims is going to appear out of nowhere and fill up Europe that wouldn't have been born otherwise. It would merely be a geographic shift of people who were going to exist anyway somewhere. Why not Europe if Europe deserves it?

But the Muslims taking over Europe are largely moderate, not extreme. Though the less Europe-America takes Islamic culture seriously, the more radicalized they get.

As for monastery evictions, the presumption is that the monasteries would be largely abandoned by the time Muslims really could "take over" and any ones left would probably regroup somewhere else. Christians have faced Muslim takeover before. The persecutions when a minority pre-dates you in a region are much less than when the minority tries to move into YOUR region (like the Christians did with pagan Rome)

Edited January 27, 2007 by batteddy

[HisChild]

I was just going to mention something that may be off topic and isn't as intense as all the earlier posts, but earlier it was mentioned that evictions probably wouldn't happen in America? Fr Groeschel recently said to his sisters and friars that one day soon, he wouldn't see it but they would, people would 'rip the habits right off you'. (I think I got that quote right.) Now, I know that his community is either exclusively, or if not, mainly, in the US. Saying that, I'd chance it to say, if his 'prediction/prophecy' is correct, I could in fact see that happening here in the (not to distant) future.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='HisChild' post='1177666' date='Jan 27 2007, 10:16 AM']
I was just going to mention something that may be off topic and isn't as intense as all the earlier posts, but earlier it was mentioned that evictions probably wouldn't happen in America? Fr Groeschel recently said to his sisters and friars that one day soon, he wouldn't see it but they would, people would 'rip the habits right off you'. (I think I got that quote right.) Now, I know that his community is either exclusively, or if not, mainly, in the US. Saying that, I'd chance it to say, if his 'prediction/prophecy' is correct, I could in fact see that happening here in the (not to distant) future.
[/quote] Oh dear, this is not good ... But it does give us a chance to bear witness to Christ ... Our Lord did warn of persecutions ..