Old Testament Satire Letter

[Aloysius]

circumsision as a sign of judaizing within Christianity is wrong, whether or not one actually puts their hope in it as a means of covenant with God. what's wrong is for any Catholic to circumcise their child in order to be similar to the jewish religion or mix old testament ordinances with the Catholic faith. one can do this with or without hoping in it as a sign.

there was no ideas (to my historical knowledge) at the time of the Council of Florence that circumsision might have health and higeine benefits. Therefore, it was a judaization of Christian belief to partake in this sign, even if no hope was placed in it. however, if any Christian comes to the idea that it may have health or hygeine benefits, they commit no sin in seeking those health benefits by circumsising their child. they would commit a sin if they did it as a sign in connection to the old testament (whether or not they considered an actual hope for salvation)

Personally, I don't think Catholics should go about circumcising any more than they should cremate their dead. Its foundations in American culture are in religious relativism and judaizing tendencies in protestants... and there really are in the end no objective medical benefits; the natural state of the human body is perfectly fine and can be perfectly hygenic and healthy.

but when doctors tell families circumsision is good for their child's health, a Christian in good faith commits no sin by circumsising for the sake of health benefits.

STM, you're way overstepping the linein jumping to conclusions here. The infallible documents of Ecumenical Councils are not created in a void, they have historic context. Delve into what the Council Fathers here meant by "whether or not they hope in it" and you will discover: they had no intention of stopping people from medically based circumsisions: they had all the intentions of stopping the judaizing sects and even Christians with judaizing tendencies who were circumsising children. they weren't always doing it placing their hope in it: sometimes they were doing it just to connect to old testament rituals with no hope in it (and that's what they would've argued had the Council not said "whether or not they hope in it") and that is the intention of the Council Fathers.

[Paddington]

Male circumcision is pretty ill, IMO. It's not that different than female circumcision.
I don't blame my parents because they thought it was a good MEDICAL thing.
So I don't think they went against the magisterium at all.

St.ThomasMore,

If a police officer has to work on Sunday.
He gets two days off a week.
One is Saturday.
The other is some other day. I'll just say Wednesday.
Should he purposely do his housework on Saturday and be blatantly religious on Wednesday?
If he chooses Saturday to be his day of rest, would he be condemned by the council you quote?
I am pretty sure it wouldn't matter which day he chose to be restful and religious on.
If it were Saturday, then it wouldn't be because he thought he HAD TO choose Saturday. If he thought HE HAD to choose Saturday, then he would be a semi-judaizer and he would be condemned by that council.
That is how it appears to me. The circumcision for medical reasons is the same concept.

Peace,
Paddington

Edited January 23, 2007 by Paddington

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1173634' date='Jan 22 2007, 10:48 PM']
Male circumcision is pretty ill, IMO. It's not that different than female circumcision.
I don't blame my parents because they thought it was a good MEDICAL thing.
So I don't think they went against the magisterium at all.

St.ThomasMore,

If a police officer has to work on Sunday.
He gets two days off a week.
One is Saturday.
The other is some other day. I'll just say Wednesday.
Should he purposely do his housework on Saturday and be blatantly religious on Wednesday?
If he chooses Saturday to be his day of rest, would he be condemned by the council you quote?
I am pretty sure it wouldn't matter which day he chose to be restful and religious on.
If it were Saturday, then it wouldn't be because he thought he HAD TO choose Saturday. If he thought HE HAD to choose Saturday, then he would be a semi-judaizer and he would be condemned by that council.
That is how it appears to me.

Peace,
Paddington
[/quote]

If a Catholic police officer must to work on Sunday, then so be it, but he should try to hear Mass and avoid all other servile labour other than that required by his job. And when he gets off work, try to spend the rest of the day in rest and prayer.

If he chooses to get his day off on Saturday, he shouldn't go out of his way to avoid servile labour and shopping, and he should treat that Saturday as if it he were getting a weekday off. He need not hear Mass on this day, unless he wants to out of personal devotion for non-Judaizing reasons.

[Paddington]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1173648' date='Jan 23 2007, 03:28 AM']
If a Catholic police officer must to work on Sunday, then so be it, but he should try to hear Mass and avoid all other servile labour other than that required by his job. And when he gets off work, try to spend the rest of the day in rest and prayer.

If he chooses to get his day off on Saturday, he shouldn't go out of his way to avoid servile labour and shopping, and he should treat that Saturday as if it he were getting a weekday off. He need not hear Mass on this day, unless he wants to out of personal devotion for non-Judaizing reasons.
[/quote]


StThomasMore,

I want to make sure I understand you. You are saying that Sunday is ALWAYS the ONLY day? So Mass is still mandatory and work can have exceptions to the rule.
If Sunday doesn't pan-out work-wise, then there is no obligation to be restful and/or extra-holy on any other day.

I'm more experienced with Protestants and they often take ONE (ANY) day off during the week and believe in going to church on Sunday.

Peace,
Paddington

[Paddington]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1173113' date='Jan 22 2007, 03:03 PM']
What's all ya'll's thoughts on the letter below? [/quote]

dairygirl,

I want somebody to explain WHY the OT law/ordinances were a good thing.
I can only think of "it is part punishment." Along with orderliness and inheritance and God making people jump through hoops to show love (like giving flowers to the wife x 10,000). And to maybe "give people what they want" even though it isn't what God wanted to do. That last sentence sounds insane. Maybe it is. But PART of human nature wants insane detail and boundaries and death for dissenters.

Peace,
Paddington

Edited January 23, 2007 by Paddington

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1173685' date='Jan 22 2007, 11:28 PM']
StThomasMore,

I want to make sure I understand you. You are saying that Sunday is ALWAYS the ONLY day? So Mass is still mandatory and work can have exceptions to the rule.
If Sunday doesn't pan-out work-wise, then there is no obligation to be restful and/or extra-holy on any other day.

I'm more experienced with Protestants and they often take ONE (ANY) day off during the week and believe in going to church on Sunday.

Peace,
Paddington
[/quote]

Sunday and Holydays (of which there are ten in the Universal Church) are the only days where one must hear Mass and refrain from servile labour. If one is unable to those things on a particular Sunday or Holyday for a just cause, they should at least try their best to do them, but never does the obligation move to another day. It's always that Sunday or Holyday.

[quote name='The Catechism of the Council of Trent']THE THIRD COMMANDMENT

"Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy works; but on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God; thou shalt do no work on it, neither thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the seventh day and sanctified it."1

REASONS FOR THIS COMMANDMENT

This Commandment of the Law rightly and in due order prescribes the external worship which we owe to God; for it is, as it were, a consequence of the preceding Commandment. For if we sincerely and devoutly worship God, guided by the faith and hope we have in Him, we cannot but honor Him with external worship and thanksgiving. Now since we cannot easily discharge these duties while occupied in worldly affairs, a certain fixed time has been set aside so that it may be conveniently performed.

IMPORTANCE OF INSTRUCTION ON THIS COMMANDMENT



The observance of this Commandment is attended with wondrous fruit and advantage. Hence it is of the highest importance for the pastor to use the utmost diligence in its exposition. The word Remember, with which the Commandment commences, must animate him to zeal in this matter; for if the faithful are bound to remember this Commandment, it becomes the duty of the pastor to recall it frequently to their minds in exhortation and instruction.

The importance of its observance for the faithful may be inferred from the consideration that those who carefully comply with it are more easily induced to keep all the other Commandments. For among the other works which are necessary on holy days, the faithful are bound to assemble in the church to hear the Word of God. When they have thus learned the divine justifications, they will be disposed to observe, with their whole heart, the law of the Lord. Hence the sanctification and observance of the Sabbath is very often commanded in Scripture, as may be seen in Exodus,2 Leviticus,3 Deuteronomy,4 and in the prophecies of Isaias,5 Jeremias,6 and Ezechiel,7 all of which contain this precept on the observance of the Sabbath.

Rulers and magistrates should be admonished and exhorted to lend the sanction and support of their authority to the pastors of the Church, particularly in upholding and extending the worship of God, and in commanding obedience to the injunctions of the priests.

HOW THE THIRD DIFFERS FROM THE OTHER COMMANDMENTS



With regard to the exposition of this Commandment, the faithful are carefully to be taught how it agrees with, and how it differs from the others, in order that they may understand why we observe and keep holy not Saturday but Sunday.



The point of difference is evident. The other Commandments of the Decalogue are precepts of the natural law, obligatory at all times and unalterable.* Hence, after the abrogation of the Law of Moses, all the Commandments contained in the two tables are observed by Christians, not indeed because their observance is commanded by Moses, but because they are in conformity with nature which dictates obedience to them.

This Commandment about the observance of the Sabbath, on the other hand, considered as to the time appointed for its fulfilment, is not fixed and unalterable, but susceptible of change, and belongs not to the moral, but the ceremonial law. Neither is it a principle of the natural law; we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God an that day, rather than on any other. And in fact the Sabbath was kept holy only from the time of the liberation of the people of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh. The observance of the Sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ. Having been, as it were, images which foreshadowed the light and the truth, these ceremonies were to disappear at the coming of that light and truth, which is Jesus Christ. Hence St. Paul, in his Epistle to the Galatians, when reproving the observers of the Mosaic rites, says: You observe days and months and times and years; I am afraid of you lest perhaps I have laboured in vain amongst you.8 And he writes to the same effect to the Colossians.9

So much regarding the difference (between this and the other Commandments).

HOW THE THIRD IS LIKE THE OTHER COMMANDMENTS

This Commandment is like the others, not in so far as it is a precept of the ceremonial law, but only as it is a natural and moral precept. The worship of God and the practice of religion, which it comprises, have the natural law for their basis. Nature prompts us to give some time to the worship of God. This is demonstrated by the fact that we find among all nations public festivals consecrated to the solemnities of religion and divine worship.

As nature requires some time to be given to necessary functions of the body, to sleep, repose and the like, so she also requires that some time be devoted to the mind, to refresh itself by the contemplation of God. Hence, since some time should be devoted to the worship of the Deity and to the practice of religion, this (Commandment) doubtless forms part of the moral law.*

THE JEWISH SABBATH CHANGED TO SUNDAY BY THE APOSTLES

The Apostles therefore resolved to consecrate the first day of the week to the divine worship, and called it the Lord's day. St. John in the Apocalypse makes mention of the Lord's day;10 and the Apostle commands collections to be made on the first day of the week;11 that is, according to the interpretation of St. Chrysostom, on the Lord's day. From all this we learn that even then the Lord's day was kept holy in the Church.

FOUR PARTS OF THIS COMMANDMENT

In order that the faithful may know what they are to do and what to avoid on the Lord's day, it will not be foreign to his purpose, if the pastor, dividing the Commandment into its four natural parts, explain each word of it carefully.

First Part of this Commandment

In the first place, then, he should explain generally the meaning of these words: Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day.

"REMEMBER"

The word remember is appropriately made use of at the beginning of the Commandment to signify that the sanctification of that particular day belonged to the ceremonial law. Of this it would seem to have been necessary to remind the people; for, although the law of nature commands us to devote a certain portion of time to the external worship to God, it fixes no particular day for the performance of this duty.

They are also to be taught, that from these words we may learn how we should employ our time during the week; that we are to keep constantly in view the Lord's day, on which we are as it were, to render an account to God for our occupations and conduct; and that therefore our works should be such as not to be unacceptable in the sight of God, or, as it is written, be to us an occasion of grief, and a scruple of heart.12

Finally, we are taught, and the instruction demands our serious attention, that there will not be wanting occasions which may lead to a forgetfulness of this Commandment, such as the evil example of others who neglect its observance, and an inordinate love of amusements and sports, which frequently withdraw from the holy and religious observance of the Lord's day.*

"SABBATH"

We now come to the meaning of the word sabbath. Sabbath is a Hebrew word which signifies cessation. To keep the Sabbath, therefore, means to cease from labor and to rest. In this sense the seventh day was called the Sabbath, because God, having finished the creation of the world, rested on that day from all the work which He had done.13 Thus it is called by the Lord in Exodus.

Later on, not only the seventh day, but, in honor of that day, the entire week was called by the same name; and in this meaning of the word, the Pharisee says in St. Luke: I fast twice in a sabbath.14 So much will suffice with regard to the signification of the word sabbath.

"KEEP HOLY"

In the Scriptures keeping holy the Sabbath means a cessation from bodily labor and from business, as is clear from the following words of the Commandment: Thou shalt do no work on it. But this is not all that it means; otherwise it would have been sufficient to say in Deuteronomy, Observe the day of the sabbath;15 but it is added, and sanctify it; and these additional words prove that the Sabbath is a day sacred to religion, set apart for works of piety and devotion.

We sanctify the Sabbath fully and perfectly, therefore, when we offer to God works of piety and religion. This is evidently the Sabbath, which Isaias calls delightful;16 for festivals are, as it were, the delight of God and of pious men. And if to this religious and holy observance of the Sabbath we add works of mercy, the rewards promised us in the same chapter are numerous and most important.

The true and proper meaning, therefore, of this Commandment tends to this, that we take special care to set apart some fixed time, when, disengaged from bodily labor and worldly affairs, we may devote our whole being, soul and body, to the religious veneration of God.

Second Part of this Commandment

The second part of the precept declares that the seventh day was consecrated by God to His worship; for it is written: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy works; but on the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. From these words we learn that the Sabbath is consecrated to the Lord, that we are required on that day to render Him the duties of religion, and to know that the seventh day is a sign of the Lord's rest.

"THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD THY GOD"

This particular day was fixed for the worship of God, because it would not have been well to leave to a rude people the choice of a time of worship, lest, perhaps, they might have imitated the festivals of the Egyptians.

The last day of the week was, therefore, chosen for the worship of God, and in this there is much that is symbolic. Hence in Exodus,17 and in Ezechiel18 the Lord calls it a sign: See that you keep my Sabbath because it is a sign between me and you in your generation, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctify you.19

It was a sign that man should dedicate and sanctify himself to God, since even the very day is devoted to Him. For the holiness of the day consists in this, that on it men are bound in a special manner to practice holiness and religion.

It was also a sign, and, as it were, a memorial of the stupendous work of the creation. Furthermore, to the Jews it was a traditional sign, reminding them that they had been delivered by the help of God from the galling yoke of Egyptian bondage. This the Lord Himself declares in these words: Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand and a stretched out arm. Therefore has he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.20

It is also a sign of a spiritual and celestial sabbath. The spiritual Sabbath consists in a holy and mystical rest, wherein the, old man being buried with Christ, is renewed to life and carefully applies himself to act in accordance with the spirit of Christian piety. For those who were once darkness but are now light in the Lord, should walk as children of the light, in all goodness and justice and truth, having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.21

The celestial Sabbath, as St. Cyril observes on these words of the Apostle, There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the People of God,22 is that life in which, living with Christ, we shall enjoy all good, when sin shall be eradicated, according to the words: No lion shall be there, nor shall any mischievous beast go up by it, nor be found there; but a path shall be there, and it shall be called the holy Way;23 for in the vision of God the souls of the Saints obtain every good. The pastor therefore should exhort and animate the faithful in the words: Let us hasten therefore to enter into that rest.24

OTHER FESTIVALS OBSERVED BY THE JEWS

Besides the seventh day, the Jews observed other festivals and holydays, instituted by the divine law to awaken the recollection of the principal favors (conferred on them by the Almighty).

THE SABBATH, WHY CHANGED TO SUNDAY

But the Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday.

For, as on that day light first shone on the world, so by the Resurrection of our Redeemer on the same day, by whom was thrown open to us the gate to eternal life, we were called out of darkness into light; and hence the Apostles would have it called the Lord's day.

We also learn from the Sacred Scriptures that the first day of the week was held sacred because on that day the work of creation commenced, and on that day the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles.

OTHER FESTIVALS OBSERVED BY THE CHURCH

From the very infancy of the Church and in the following centuries other days were also appointed by the Apostles and the holy Fathers, in order to commemorate the benefits bestowed by God. Among these days to be kept sacred the most solemn are those which were instituted to honor the mysteries of our redemption. In the next place are the days which are dedicated to the most Blessed Virgin Mother, to the Apostles, Martyrs and other Saints who reign with Christ. In the celebration of their victories the divine power and goodness are praised, due honor is paid to their memories, and the faithful are encouraged to imitate them.

"SIX DAYS SHALT THOU LABOUR AND DO ALL THY WORK"

And as the observance of the precept is very strongly assisted by these words: Six days shalt thou labour, but on the seventh day is the sabbath of God, the pastor should therefore carefully explain them to the people. For from these words it can be gathered that the faithful are to be exhorted not to spend their lives in indolence and sloth, but that each one, mindful of the words of the Apostle, should do his own business, and work with his own hands, as he had commanded them.25

These words also enjoin as a duty commanded by God that in six days we do all our works, lest we defer to a festival what should have been done during the other days of the week, thereby distracting the attention from the things of God.

Third Part of this Commandment

The third part of the Commandment comes next to be explained. It points out, to a certain extent, the manner in which we are to keep holy the Sabbath day, and explains particularly what we are forbidden to do on that day.

WORKS FORBIDDEN

Thou shalt do no work on it, says the Lord, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates.

These words teach us, in the first place, to avoid whatever may interfere with the worship of God. Hence it is not difficult to perceive that all servile works are forbidden, not because they are improper or evil in themselves, but because they withdraw the attention from the worship of God, which is the great end of the Commandment.

The faithful should be still more careful to avoid sin, which not only withdraws the mind from the contemplation of divine things, but entirely alienates us from the love of God.

WORKS PERMITTED

But whatever regards the celebration of divine worship, such as the decoration of the altar or church on occasion of some festival, and the like, although servile works, are not prohibited; and hence our Lord says: The priests in the temple break the sabbath, and are without blame.26

Neither are we to suppose that this Commandment forbids attention to those things on a feast day, which, if neglected, will be lost; for this is expressly permitted by the sacred canons.

There are many other things which our Lord in the Gospel declares lawful on festivals and which may be seen by the pastor in St. Matthew and St. John.

WHY ANIMALS ARE NOT TO BE EMPLOYED ON THE SABBATH

To omit nothing that may interfere with the sanctification of the Sabbath, the Commandment mentions beasts of burden, because their use will prevent its due observance. If beasts be employed on the Sabbath, human labor also becomes necessary to direct them; for they do not labor alone, but assist the labors of man. Now it is not lawful for man to work on that day. Hence it is not lawful for the animals to work which man uses.

But the Commandment has also another purpose. For if God commands the exemption of cattle from labor on the Sabbath, still more imperative is the obligation to avoid all acts of inhumanity towards servants, or others whose labor and industry we employ.

WORKS COMMANDED OR RECOMMENDED

The pastor should also not omit carefully to teach what works and actions Christians should perform on festival days. These are: to go to church, and there, with heartfelt piety and devotion, to assist at the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; and to approach frequently the Sacraments of the Church, instituted for our salvation in order to obtain a remedy for the wounds of the soul.

Nothing can be more seasonable or salutary for Christians than frequent recourse to confession; and to this the pastor will be enabled to exhort the faithful by using the instructions and proofs which have been explained in their own place on the Sacrament of Penance.

But not only should he urge his people to have recourse to that Sacrament, he should also zealously exhort them again and again to approach frequently the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist.

The faithful should also listen with attention and reverence to sermons. Nothing is more intolerable, nothing more unworthy than to despise the words of Christ, or hear them with indifference.

Likewise the faithful should give themselves to frequent prayer and the praises of God; and an object of their special attention should be to learn those things which pertain to a Christian life, and to practice with care the duties of piety, such as giving alms to the poor and needy, visiting the sick, and administering consolation to the sorrowful and afflicted. Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father is this, says St. James, to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation.27 *

From what has been said it is easy to perceive how this Commandment may be violated.*

Motives for the Observance of this Commandment

It is also a duty of the pastor to have ready at hand certain main arguments by which he may especially persuade the people to observe this Commandment with all zeal and the greatest exactitude.

REASONABLENESS OF THIS DUTY

To the attainment of this end it will materially conduce, if the people understand and clearly see how just and reasonable it is to devote certain days exclusively to the worship of God in order to acknowledge, adore, and venerate our Lord from whom we have received such innumerable and inestimable blessings.

Had He commanded us to offer Him every day the tribute of religious worship, would it not be our duty, in return for His inestimable and infinite benefits towards us, to endeavor to obey the command with promptitude and alacrity? But now that the days consecrated to His worship are but few, there is no excuse for neglecting or reluctantly performing this duty, which moreover obliges under grave sin.

THE OBSERVANCE OF THIS COMMANDMENT BRINGS

MANY BLESSINGS

The pastor should next point out the excellence of this precept. Those who are faithful in its observance are admitted, as it were, into the divine presence to speak freely with God; for In prayer we contemplate the divine majesty, and commune with Him; in hearing religious instruction, we hear the voice of God, which reaches us through the agency of those who devoutly preach on divine things; and at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we adore Christ the Lord, present on our altars. Such are the blessings which they preeminently enjoy who faithfully observe this Commandment.

NEGLECT OF THIS COMMANDMENT A GREAT CRIME

But those who altogether neglect its fulfilment resist God and His Church; they heed not God's command, and are enemies of Him and His holy laws, of which the easiness of the command is itself a proof. We should, it is true, be prepared to undergo the severest labor for the sake of God; but in this Commandment He imposes on us no labor; He only commands us to rest and disengage ourselves from worldly cares on those days which are to be kept holy. To refuse obedience to this Commandment is, therefore, a proof of extreme boldness; and the punishments with which its infraction has been visited by God, as we learn from the Book of Numbers,28 should be a warning to us.

In order, therefore, to avoid offending God in this way, we should frequently ponder this word: Remember, and should place before our minds the important advantages and blessings which, as we have already seen, flow from the religious observance of holydays, and also numerous other considerations of the same tendency, which the good and zealous pastor should develop at considerable length to his people as circumstances may require.[/quote]



[quote name='The Catechism of St. Pius X'] The Third Commandment

1 Q. What does the Third Commandment: Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day, command us to do?
A. The Third Commandment: Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day, commands us to honour God by acts of worship on festivals.

2 Q. What are festivals?
A. In the Old Law they were Saturdays and certain other days regarded as specially solemn by the Jews; in the New Law they are Sundays and other festivals instituted by the Church.

3 Q. Why is Sunday sanctified instead of Saturday in the New Law?
A. Sunday, which means the Lord's Day, was substituted for Saturday, because it was on that day that our Lord rose from the dead.

4 Q. What act of worship is commanded us on festivals?
A. We are commanded to assist devoutly at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

5 Q. With what other good works does a good Christian sanctify festivals?
A. A good Christian sanctifies festivals: (1) By attending Christian Doctrine, sermons, and the Divine Office; (2) By frequently and devoutly receiving the sacraments of Penance and the Blessed Eucharist; (3) By the practice of prayer and works of Christian charity.

6 Q. What does the Third Commandment forbid?
A. The Third Commandment forbids servile works and any other works that hinder the worship of God.

7 Q. What servile works are forbidden on festivals?
A. The servile works forbidden on festivals are those works called manual, that is, those material works in which the body has more part than the mind, such, for instance, as are ordinarily done by servants, labourers, and artisans.

8 Q. What sin does one commit by working on festivals?
A. One commits a mortal sin by working on festivals; brevity of time, however, will excuse from grave sin.

9 Q. Is no servile work at all permitted on festivals?
A. On festivals those works are permitted which are necessary for life, or for the service of God; as well as those done for a grave reason, with leave, when possible, from the Pastor.

10 Q. Why is servile work forbidden on festivals?
A. Servile work is forbidden on festivals in order that we may the better attend to divine worship, and to the care of our souls; And to enable us to rest from toil. Hence innocent recreation is not forbidden.

11 Q. What else above all should we avoid on festivals?
A. We should above all avoid sin and whatever leads to sin, such as dangerous diversions and dangerous places of amusement.[/quote]

[quote name='The Catechism of St. Pius X']The First Precept of the Church

7 Q. What does the First Precept of the Church: To hear Mass on all Sundays and on Holydays of obligation, order us to do?
A. The First Precept of the Church: To hear Mass on all Sundays and on Holydays of obligations, orders us to assist devoutly at Mass on all Sundays and on Holydays of obligation.

8 Q. At which Mass does the Church desire us to assist on Sundays and on Holydays of obligation?
A. The Mass at which the Church desires us to assist, if possible, on Sundays and Holydays of obligation is the Parochial Mass.

9 Q. Why does the Church recommend the faithful to assist at the Parochial Mass?
A. The Church recommends the faithful to assist at the Parochial Mass: (1) In order that all the parishioners of the same parish may unite in prayer together with their Pastor, who is their head; (2) In order that the parishioners may participate more abundantly in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which is applied principally for them; (3) In order that they may hear the truths of the Gospel, which Pastors are bound to explain during Mass; (4) In order that they may learn the regulations and notices which are published at that Mass.

10 Q. What is meant by the Lord's Day?
A. The Lord's Day means the day of the Lord, that is, the day specially consecrated to divine service.

11 Q. Why in the First Precept of the Church is special mention made of the Lord's day?
A. In the First Precept of the Church special mention is made of the Lord's Day, because it is the principal Christian festival, as the Sabbath was the principal Jewish festival, and because it was instituted by God Himself.

12 Q. What other festivals have been instituted by the Church?
A. The Church has instituted Feasts of our Lord, of the Blessed Virgin, of the Angels and of the Saints.

13 Q. Why did the Church institute other Festivals of our Lord?
A. The Church instituted other Festivals of our Lord in memory of His divine Mysteries.

14 Q. And why have Festivals of the Blessed Virgin and of the Saints been instituted?
A. Festivals of the Blessed Virgin and of the Saints have been instituted: (1) In memory of the graces which God has given them, and to thank His divine goodness; (2) In order that we may honour them, imitate their example, and be aided by their prayers.

[The universal law of the Church reckons ten Holydays of obligation: the feasts of Christmas, the Circumcision, the Epiphany, the Ascension, Corpus Christi, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, St. Joseph, Sts. Peter and Paul, and All Saints (CIC 1917: Can.1247; CIC 1983, Can. 1246). In many countries, by local concessions, they are reduced.][/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I haven't read this whole thread, but:

Circumcision is not a sin, provided one's intention is not to enter into a covenant with it (the documents quoted clearly stipulate that circumcision with that intention is wrong, not circumcision itself).

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]circumsision as a sign of judaizing within Christianity is wrong, whether or not one actually puts their hope in it as a means of covenant with God. what's wrong is for any Catholic to circumcise their child in order to be similar to the jewish religion or mix old testament ordinances with the Catholic faith. one can do this with or without hoping in it as a sign.

there was no ideas (to my historical knowledge) at the time of the Council of Florence that circumsision might have health and higeine benefits. Therefore, it was a judaization of Christian belief to partake in this sign, even if no hope was placed in it. however, if any Christian comes to the idea that it may have health or hygeine benefits, they commit no sin in seeking those health benefits by circumsising their child. they would commit a sin if they did it as a sign in connection to the old testament (whether or not they considered an actual hope for salvation)[/quote]

that's what i would have guessed should be the reply.

as always... al is the voice of reason.

[dairygirl4u2c]

and if Al is right, this is probably a great example of how he says ultra-conservatives get it wrong. they are interpreting history in a way that wasn't intended for it to be interpreted and becoming "more conservative" so to speak than they really should be.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1174045' date='Jan 23 2007, 01:36 PM']
I haven't read this whole thread, but:

Circumcision is not a sin, provided one's intention is not to enter into a covenant with it (the documents quoted clearly stipulate that circumcision with that intention is wrong, not circumcision itself).
[/quote]

The Council of Florence disagrees with you.

[Norseman82]

And would you please learn how to spell "ecumenical" like a normal American? We're not on the other side of the pond.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1174286' date='Jan 23 2007, 06:09 PM']
And would you please learn how to spell "ecumenical" like a normal American? We're not on the other side of the pond.
[/quote]

Would you please not correct someone's spelling when it is not incorrect?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1174267' date='Jan 23 2007, 07:53 PM']
The Council of Florence disagrees with you.
[/quote]
The Catholic Church says circumcision is fine if done for medical reasons. If you don't like it then don't snip your future sons. Just don't use the Church as an excuse.

Hijack time is over . Stick to the original topic.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1174292' date='Jan 23 2007, 06:16 PM']
The Catholic Church says circumcision is fine if done for medical reasons. If you don't like it then don't snip your future sons. Just don't use the Church as an excuse.

Hijack time is over . Stick to the original topic.
[/quote]

Find me a Church document where it says circumcision specifically is fine if done for medical reasons.

[Lil Red]

why don't you take this to another thread since cmom already asked you to?