Bruce S Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 catholics believe that any protestant who insists on referring to Mary as the "Mother of Jesus" instead of th e"Mother of God" is implicitly denying a key aspect of the Incarnation. to say that Mary is only the mother of Jesus is to deny the perfect existence of both human nature, and Godly or divine nature in the second person of the Holy Trinity. Mary was a willing vessel and agent. Nothing more, nothing less. She is not divine, only a human, just like you ... she knowingly played out the role that she accepted. Most Protestants would say that the Marian devotions that are getting such emphasis in Catholicm diverts the DIRECT incercessary role Jesus assigned exclusively to himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Mary was a willing vessel and agent. Nothing more, nothing less. To reduce any woman to such a statement is an insult quite frankly! Mary has my undying respect and honour that she was completely and utterly obedient to God, particularly when she was being asked to do something that was so out of 'normal' human experience and would in all probability result in her being cast out from her community and all she had known. I wonder in all honesty how many of us would have responded so obediently....or maybe it's just me, aware that I want to be completely obedient to my God and yet with all my human fraility, all too often failing. Thank God, in His infinite wisdom and mercy, that He knew Mary would respond in the way she did. 'Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favoured, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?' Luke 1:41-42 NIV version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Amen and amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Bruce, Where you talking about the incarnation of Christ, or the Eucharistic Sacrifice? I have never met a Protestant (a true believer) who didn't believe in the incarnation as described in the original post. I know lots of them, across many denominations as I was one for 30 years. Although, finding some one who could define hypstatic union, might be a problem! peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Mary was a willing vessel and agent. Nothing more, nothing less. She is not divine, only a human, just like you ... she knowingly played out the role that she accepted. Most Protestants would say that the Marian devotions that are getting such emphasis in Catholicm diverts the DIRECT incercessary role Jesus assigned exclusively to himself. I can't say for sure whether you're "saved" or not (I don't even know if I am). But, lets say you make it... I'm wondering if you'll have the guts to say this in front of Jesus, when He introduces you to His Mother, the Queen of Heaven. She is not divine, only a human, just like you No one here is saying she's divine, so I wish you would stop saying that. Most Protestants would say that the Marian devotions that are getting such emphasis in Catholicm diverts the DIRECT incercessary role Jesus assigned exclusively to himself. And a Catholic would ask you to show specifically where in the Bible Jesus assigns himself this role??? Mediation and intercession are two different things. St. Paul was the one who said that there is one mediator. And Jesus said no one can come to the Father except through me. And a Catholic wouldn't deny that. Mary is an intercessor and co-(not equal)mediator. When Mary prays for us (intercession) her prayers go to Jesus. So Jesus remains the ONE mediator between God and man. Look. I'll make it simple. man ------->Jesus------->God. Replace "man" with Jake. You don't have a problem right. Jake is a "man", and Jesus is the mediator. Well. What about... Jake------>Bruce------->Jesus-------->God. Does that still work?? I mean, I can ask you to pray for me right?? So, we just truncate me off, and it's still man ------->Jesus------->God, because Bruce is "man". Okay, so now, lets take that a step further... Jake--------->Mary--------->Jesus-------->God. Doesn't this work??? If I ask Mary to pray for me, it still goes to Jesus. And since Mary is "man", we can truncate me off again and it still is. man ------->Jesus------->God. Does that help. Now back to the topic at hand. Incarnation implies that God became man. And since Jesus is God, then explain how Mary is NOT the Mother of God?? First define "birth". Because I'll bet you think "birth" means something other than what a Catholic might think it to mean. There are different meanings. Second define "mother". Because as someone pointed out: Catholics understand that differently too. If birth means "giving human life" to something. And "mother" means to nurture and care for. Than Mary indeed is the Mother of God. She gave Him human flesh, and she also nurtured and cared for Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Mary was a willing vessel and agent. Nothing more, nothing less. She is not divine, only a human, just like you ... she knowingly played out the role that she accepted. Most Protestants would say that the Marian devotions that are getting such emphasis in Catholicm diverts the DIRECT incercessary role Jesus assigned exclusively to himself. Bruce, I would agree with your assessment that most protestants would say that, but I think they would be misunderstanding the whole point. From what I understand Mary doesn't sit on a throne and soak up praise, but instead, Mary points to her Son Jesus. In the Rosary itself, the person praying says "Hail Mary full of grace" - instead of saying "Hey some woman who God choose" (that is kind of demeaning to the mother of God. They are giving Mary due respect. After all, what if I said "Paul was just some bum off the street that God used, nothing more. Protestants would likely challange that opinion, so I certianly don't fault Catholics for challenging the opinion Mary was basically a nobody. The rosary is also centered around Christ a great deal. The person also prays the Apostles Creed and the Lord's Prayer. Nothing about the rosary I have seen focuses soley on Mary without pointing to her Son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Bruce, I would agree with your assessment that most protestants would say that, but I think they would be misunderstanding the whole point. From what I understand Mary doesn't sit on a throne and soak up praise, but instead, Mary points to her Son Jesus. In the Rosary itself, the person praying says "Hail Mary full of grace" - instead of saying "Hey some woman who God choose" (that is kind of demeaning to the mother of God. They are giving Mary due respect. After all, what if I said "Paul was just some bum off the street that God used, nothing more. Protestants would likely challange that opinion, so I certianly don't fault Catholics for challenging the opinion Mary was basically a nobody. The rosary is also centered around Christ a great deal. The person also prays the Apostles Creed and the Lord's Prayer. Nothing about the rosary I have seen focuses soley on Mary without pointing to her Son. AMEN! Brother! *claps hands and raises arms* If you can be enthusiastic about God, you can be enthusiastic about everything and everyone He graces. :D And don't forget about the 'Glory Be' at the end of every decade and the glaring fact the prayer begins and ends with the sign on the cross.., "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen." (I don't see Mary mentioned in either.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesiringMore Posted January 23, 2004 Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 I can't say for sure whether you're "saved" or not (I don't even know if I am). you don't? i'm curious about this...and i may be stupid...but i will be the first to admit that...where does QUEEN OF HEAVEN come from? why is Mary queen of heaven? thank you jake huther for explaining that man----->Jesus----->God....when looking at it this way, you may have caused others to look at the man---->Mary----->Jesus----->God in a new way....just as some look at jake---->bruce---->Jesus--->God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesiringMore Posted January 23, 2004 Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 okay, please define the words BIRTH and MOTHER for me as Catholics define this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 DesiringMore, Thanks for the respons. Indeed, I don't know if I'm "saved". In that, I'm not in heaven yet, and I can't predict my own future. I'm finding myself in Confession more and more, either because I'm sinning more and more, or I'm more aware of the sins I was once used to. Either way, I'm learning as I come closer to God, how far away from him I actually am/was. I don't know if I'll be saved, because really none of us deserve to be "saved". So, I'll leave the judging to the just Judge. I cannot justly say (at this time) that I deserve to be saved. I don't know that I've marrited the Blood of Christ. I'm a poor sinner, and if I am saved, then Glory be to God. But I won't be so proud as to presume I either am saved or deserve to be saved. According to the Bible, and History, the mother of a king is considered the queen. For instance, king Soloman's mother was the queen. This was because many times the king had more than one wife, or no wife at all. In which case it would be difficult to assign "queenship". So, if Jesus is King of the Heavens and Earth, then according to the Bible/history, Mary, human though she is, is Queen of Heaven and of Earth. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 If birth means "giving human life" to something. And "mother" means to nurture and care for. Than Mary indeed is the Mother of God. She gave Him human flesh, and she also nurtured and cared for Him. Catholics see the birth of God by Mary not as the beggining of God, or that God was created. We see the birth of God as the earthly manifestation of God. His birth is what gave Him Flesh. Catholics see Mother, not as an indication that she came before, or that she somehow is Greater. "Mother" simply implies that she gave Him birth, and that she cared for Him, and nurtured Him. The Protestant claim that Mary isn't the Mother of God, though rationalized according to interpritations of "birth" and "mother", has its roots in the attempt to simply be "less" Catholic. Jesus is fully God and fully Man. Mary didn't give Spiritual Life to God. But Mary gave earthly, human life to God. In this, she gave birth to God and became His mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Bruce, I would agree with your assessment that most protestants would say that, but I think they would be misunderstanding the whole point. From what I understand Mary doesn't sit on a throne and soak up praise, but instead, Mary points to her Son Jesus. In the Rosary itself, the person praying says "Hail Mary full of grace" - instead of saying "Hey some woman who God choose" (that is kind of demeaning to the mother of God. They are giving Mary due respect. After all, what if I said "Paul was just some bum off the street that God used, nothing more. Protestants would likely challange that opinion, so I certianly don't fault Catholics for challenging the opinion Mary was basically a nobody. The rosary is also centered around Christ a great deal. The person also prays the Apostles Creed and the Lord's Prayer. Nothing about the rosary I have seen focuses soley on Mary without pointing to her Son. u seem to respect the Rosary... you should pray it sometime ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesiringMore Posted January 23, 2004 Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 its by grace that we are saved...we cannot DO anything accept it that makes us worthy of being saved.....but that's beauty in the love of God... "For the wages of sin is death, BUT the GIFT of God is eternal life in CHJrist Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23 But God demonstrates his lown love for us in this: while we were STILL SINNER, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8 That if you confess with your moth "jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9 "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" Romans 10:13 "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER believes in him shall have everlasting life." John 3:16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 its by grace that we are saved...we cannot DO anything accept it that makes us worthy of being saved.....but that's beauty in the love of God... "For the wages of sin is death, BUT the GIFT of God is eternal life in CHJrist Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23 But God demonstrates his lown love for us in this: while we were STILL SINNER, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8 That if you confess with your moth "jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9 "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" Romans 10:13 "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER believes in him shall have everlasting life." John 3:16 I understand that. But we are also called to be humble. I cannot bost that I am saved, when that time has not yet come. I, rather, am working out my salvation in fear and trembling. Or at leat I'm trying to, anyway. I may be saved. But I am fully aware of my sinful nature, and how easy it is to fall. And if I fall and do not get up, then I will be counted with the damned. And by the way... Romans 10:13 is taken out of context when viewd like that. Because, Matthew 7: 21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 think of this gift like the gift of a puppy. if someone gives you a puppy as a free gift you say yay! i got a free gift. if you assume that because it was a free gift you are not responsible to take care of it and nurture it, it will die. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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