What If Billy Graham

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174477' date='Jan 23 2007, 10:58 PM']
Why? Why does someone need to be in authority?

If we all have the Holy Ghost, and it leads us into all truth, why do we need human leadership? Why do we need any human leadership, be it religion or governmental? Are we being brainwashed into believing we need it?

After reading 1st Samuel 8:5-18, those were my questions, especially when I read those scriptures, and see coutries creating armies which they use to kill each other. Where religions teach people to commit holy crusades through out the last two thousand years.

First it was the Christians who invaded the holy lands during the great crusades, and now it's Osma Bin Ladens asking people to fly air planes into buildings, if that is what truly happened. We have WWI, and WWII, the first bringing the opression of federal income tax to us, and the second bringing the opression of a multi-national organization whose treaties we have signed promotes children watching pornography, homosexual rights, educational enforcement of teaching of global citizens, and many other evil things.

I realized the truth when I saw all these things come to pass. We don't need religion or government, only YHWH. But the flesh will always war against the spirit, and so your statement reminds me of such. Your flesh wants the security of human leadership.

I choose something else entirely. I will not conform to this world of govenrment or religion anymore. I will go YHWH's way. His way is pure and precious. His way is better for us. We need the be freed of all bondage of government and religion because they only bring wars, death, destruction, famine, bondage and control in our world.
[/quote]
We need someone in charge because without it, anyone can pick up a Bible and interpret it on there own. That is why there are so many different groups out there spouting their personal version of christianity must be correct. So you have lutherans, unitarians, pentecostal, baptists etc all claiming to be right with different teachings.
Fact: Jesus Christ founded a Church and gave the CHURCH authority. He did NOT write a book. The Church is the pillar and foundation, not a book. Is the Bible important - absolutely. Will it save us? No. The Bible is Sacred Tradition written down.
But the Bible which was canoned 400 years after Jesus, is not the Living Body of Christ. The Church is, where the Apostles were told to do THIS in remembrance of me, and to teach and preach, and baptise.
Somebody has to be in charge, and Jesus put St Peter in charge. Imagine for 2000 years someone is still in charge. Thank You God

[dairygirl4u2c]

as a practical matter, it also seems weird to command someone to do something when they don't know why. i suppose it's no different though than when your parents tell you to do something, and you later find that they were right but didn't know at the time they told you.

as a matter of theory though, if we have faith in hte holy spirit to bring pepole to the truth, we wouldn't necessarily need the CC. people would figure it out eventually. that does somewhat ring a bell with our human condition that we really don't know a whole lot about God etc. catholics would surely say the beauty of the CCis that you don't have to figure most of it out. if people are doing things against the CC and think they are in spirit and do so all their lives, I wonder how catholics can remain confident they are right thought.

if the cc is wrong though, that's a travesty of will to the human person. i believe what scott hahn once said rings true. either the CC is what it says it is and is one of the greatest blessing ever, or the CC is not what it says it is and one of the biggest curses ever.

[ronyodish]

FullTruth,

The Catholic Church teaches that Christ is the King, in fact, King of Kings:

[quote]Though already present in his Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled "with power and great glory" by the King's return to earth. This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ's Passover. Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God." That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ's return by saying to him: Marana tha! "Our Lord, come!" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 671).[/quote]

And

[quote]On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords (Rev. 19:16).[/quote]

The Pope, and in fact, all the People of God, reborn in Christ, share in the Kingly office of Christ:

[quote]Finally, the People of God shares in the royal office of Christ. He exercises his kingship by drawing all men to himself through his death and Resurrection. Christ, King and Lord of the universe, made himself the servant of all, for he came "not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." For the Christian, "to reign is to serve him," particularly when serving "the poor and the suffering, in whom the Church recognizes the image of her poor and suffering founder." The People of God fulfills its royal dignity by a life in keeping with its vocation to serve with Christ.

The sign of the cross makes kings of all those reborn in Christ and the anointing of the Holy Spirit consecrates them as priests, so that, apart from the particular service of our ministry, all spiritual and rational Christians are recognized as members of this royal race and sharers in Christ's priestly office. What, indeed, is as royal for a soul as to govern the body in obedience to God? And what is as priestly as to dedicate a pure conscience to the Lord and to offer the spotless offerings of devotion on the altar of the heart? (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 786).[/quote]

In a special sense, the Pope's role in the Kingdom of God is that of a Prime Minister to Jesus Christ his King. This office of a prime minister (or Steward) is based on the model of the OT kingdom of David. In Isaiah 22, during the reign of king Hezekiah, the Lord removes the prime minister Shebna from his office and replaces him with Eliakim, saying of him the following:

[quote]In that day I will call my servant Eli'akim the son of Hilki'ah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father [Papa, Pope] to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father's house. And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father's house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. (Isaiah 22:20-24).[/quote]

In the NT, Jesus draws from this OT text when he makes Peter the steward of His Kingdom:

[quote]And I tell you, you are Peter [Rock, Kepa in Aramaic], and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).[/quote]

Thus, the Catholic understanding of the authority of the Pope as the Steward of Christ's kingdom is very Biblical, and makes sense in that a steward is needed in order to unite the whole Church of Christ, so that the faith, which was delivered to the saints once and for all, can be preserved for all generations without confusion and error.

God bless,

Rony

Edited January 24, 2007 by Rony Odish

[FullTruth]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1174494' date='Jan 23 2007, 11:08 PM']
We need someone in charge because without it, anyone can pick up a Bible and interpret it on there own. That is why there are so many different groups out there spouting their personal version of christianity must be correct. So you have lutherans, unitarians, pentecostal, baptists etc all claiming to be right with different teachings.
Fact: Jesus Christ founded a Church and gave the CHURCH authority. He did NOT write a book. The Church is the pillar and foundation, not a book. Is the Bible important - absolutely. Will it save us? No. The Bible is Sacred Tradition written down.
But the Bible which was canoned 400 years after Jesus, is not the Living Body of Christ. The Church is, where the Apostles were told to do THIS in remembrance of me, and to teach and preach, and baptise.
Somebody has to be in charge, and Jesus put St Peter in charge. Imagine for 2000 years someone is still in charge. Thank You God
[/quote]

There are examples of the scriptures written in 150 A.D.

There books of the Bible were written much earlier than 400 years after the death of Jesus. If that was not so, I as a journalist would not believe it. How can something written hundreds of years after someone's death be true?

But thank YHWH, the majority of the books of the bible was written within the first thirty of years after the death of Christ.

So the books were written before then. Canonized in 400 AD, yes, but written before then.

I only posed a question. Should any human being have authority over anything on earth?

Would not the Spirit testify of the truth, and lead us into godly and holy lives? Your statement suggests it would not. What I say is not my interpretation of the Bible, but the spirit's interpretation. Only the spirit can interpret the word of YHWH. And the spirit has freed me from the prision I once was in, being a part of the governmentally and religion controlled world. I don't need them. I only need YHWH because he is the truth, he is the way, he is the life. YHWH is our righteousness.

And Yeshua didn't put anybody in charge. Did Peter tell Paul, go out and teach the Gentiles. No, YHWH did. YHWH came to Paul and then Paul went out to preach the truth.

YHWH is more than capable of ruling over us, even if he is not here. He can give us each personal guidence and direction through his spirit. We don't need a Pope telling us what to do at all. YHWH can do it all by himself.

We don't need Presidents, Prime Ministers, Senators, Primiers, Govenours, Popes, Priests, the United Nations, or any other authority over us. We only need YHWH. It is that pure and simple. Nothing more and nothing less than that.

Edited January 24, 2007 by FullTruth

[ardillacid]

ANARCHY!!!

[Katholikos]

[b]I wrote that the Catholic Church considers the Orthodox to be in schism, not in heresy.

StThmasMore replied:

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1173320' date='Jan 22 2007, 06:42 PM']
That's completely incorrect. The Greek Orthodox are in schism and in heresy. [/quote]

My answer:

QUOTE
Orthodox Churches:

Eastern Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Christians of the Orthodox Churches are separated from the Catholic Church [color="#CC0000"](schism)[/color], yet are in an imperfect but deep communion with the Catholic Church by reason of our common Baptism, the profession of the Creed, and the possession of true sacraments by reason of the apostolic succession of their priesthood.

END QUOTE

Source: THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
(Second Edition) GLOSSARY

(color added)

Jay[/b]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174535' date='Jan 24 2007, 12:00 AM']
YHWH is more than capable of ruling over us, even if he is not here. He can give us each personal guidence and direction through his spirit. We don't need a Pope telling us what to do at all. YHWH can do it all by himself.

We don't need Presidents, Prime Ministers, Senators, Primiers, Govenours, Popes, Priests, the United Nations, or any other authority over us. We only need YHWH. It is that pure and simple. Nothing more and nothing less than that.
[/quote]

So what happens when we sin by rebelling against what YHWH tells us to do?

And didn't Christ say, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's"?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174535' date='Jan 24 2007, 12:00 AM']
There are examples of the scriptures written in 150 A.D.
[color="#3333FF"]THe last Scripture written was St Johns around AD 100[/color]


There books of the Bible were written much earlier than 400 years after the death of Jesus. If that was not so, I as a journalist would not believe it. How can something written hundreds of years after someone's death be true?

But thank YHWH, the majority of the books of the bible was written within the first thirty of years after the death of Christ.

So the books were written before then. Canonized in 400 AD, yes, but written before then.

[color="#3333FF"]Yep.[/color]

I only posed a question. Should any human being have authority over anything on earth?

[color="#3333FF"]Yes. otherwise you have anarchy.[/color]

Would not the Spirit testify of the truth, and lead us into godly and holy lives? Your statement suggests it would not. What I say is not my interpretation of the Bible, but the spirit's interpretation. Only the spirit can interpret the word of YHWH. And the spirit has freed me from the prision I once was in, being a part of the governmentally and religion controlled world. I don't need them. I only need YHWH because he is the truth, he is the way, he is the life. YHWH is our righteousness.

[color="#3333FF"]Each group claims the Spirit tells them something different. That is not possible if there is only ONE Truth.[/color]


And Yeshua didn't put anybody in charge. Did Peter tell Paul, go out and teach the Gentiles. No, YHWH did. YHWH came to Paul and then Paul went out to preach the truth.

[color="#3333FF"]God the FatherHimself put Peter in charge, as written in Scripture.[/color]

YHWH is more than capable of ruling over us, even if he is not here. He can give us each personal guidence and direction through his spirit. We don't need a Pope telling us what to do at all. YHWH can do it all by himself.

[color="#3333FF"]Sadly it doesn't work that way. I have friends who are convinced God tells them its ok to be active homosexuals. I have friends who believe abortion is acceptable cause their God tells tem so. THIS is why God put Peter and his sucessors in charge.[/color]

We don't need Presidents, Prime Ministers, Senators, Primiers, Govenours, Popes, Priests, the United Nations, or any other authority over us. We only need YHWH. It is that pure and simple. Nothing more and nothing less than that.
[/quote]

[color="#3333FF"]Without someone in charge you have anarchy and division.[/color]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1174738' date='Jan 24 2007, 10:40 AM']
[b]I wrote that the Catholic Church considers the Orthodox to be in schism, not in heresy.

StThmasMore replied:
My answer:

QUOTE
Orthodox Churches:

Eastern Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Christians of the Orthodox Churches are separated from the Catholic Church [color="#CC0000"](schism)[/color], yet are in an imperfect but deep communion with the Catholic Church by reason of our common Baptism, the profession of the Creed, and the possession of true sacraments by reason of the apostolic succession of their priesthood.

END QUOTE

Source: THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
(Second Edition) GLOSSARY

(color added)

Jay[/b]
[/quote]

That doesn't say they're not in schism and heresy...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I would say that as the Orthodox Church is missing the full deposit, it is in a state of material heresy and some of its members in a state of formal heresy.

Of course, some "Catholics" are in a state of formal heresy, too, so that doesn't say much.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1175162' date='Jan 24 2007, 08:41 PM']
So what happens when we sin by rebelling against what YHWH tells us to do?

And didn't Christ say, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's"?
[/quote]
Christ did say we need to obey the leaders of the land, and I do so only because Yeshua asks us to.

Obeying leadership of our countries and needing the leadership of countries are two different things though.

1st Samuel 8:5-18 perfectly describes what human leadership does, and if the original nation of Israel didn't need human leadership before they asked for a King, but got tricked by Satan to ask for one (Scripture doesn't spell that out, but after you read for yourself what these scriptures say, you will realize only one entity is so evil to make people curse themselves like that).

On when we sin by rebelling against what YHWH tells us to do, well, that would happen right now because of the people in charge, as it did for the Children of Israel.

Humanity needs freedom from the chains that hold us - and those chains are Religion and Government, but we are not ready for it yet. Especially today - when people can name 10 kinds of beers faster than the 10 commandments. . .

I'm just laying the ground work of YHWH to give that revelation of pure and utter freedom for people, laying the seeds if you will. He will come and those who have soft hearts who received this promise of YHWH for the future, who will gladly come to him and ask for his freedom from everything division that blinds us and binds us, and they will be his children, and they will rule with the Christ. That is YHWH's promise to us.

After all, we can all agree, there will come a time when the government will be on Yeshua's shoulders. What a time that will be. I can't wait to see the day he comes back and governments and religions will be dissolved, and the fullness of freedom and truth will reign in the hearts and minds of the believers across the world.

Edited January 25, 2007 by FullTruth

[FullTruth]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1175197' date='Jan 24 2007, 09:03 PM']
[color="#3333FF"]Without someone in charge you have anarchy and division.[/color]
[/quote]
cmom,

I didn't know you were of such little faith.

You are correct, we are not ready for pure and utter freedom in YHWH yet. Satan, the God of this world, has ensured that won't happen. But YHWH established the original nation of Israel without any human authority in the old testament. They asked for a King, if you remember, and recieved a curse from the Almighty almost as strong as the ones YHWH gave Adam and Eve. Read 1st Samuel 8:5-18.

Unfortunately, the nation of Israel wasn't spiritually mature enough to be responsible with the freedom YHWH gave them. It is YHWH's will that we have no human leadership, and when Yeshua comes back, that will become evident, because the government will be on the shoulders of Yeshua. All governments, countries, borders, and religions will dissolve, and everybody will say Yeshua is Lord to the glory of YHWH the father. Yeshua will be the government and the spiritual belief system of the people.

We don't need human leadership, only the leadership of YHWH.

But we live in a world that has choosen Satan's way, and countries will continue to create armies to kill and destroy people of other countries, and new taxes to steal from its citizens, and religions will continue to brainwash their people to believe if they kill the infidels, they will go to Heaven. It is a messed up world that needs Yeshua to come back as soon as possible to fix this mess.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1175479' date='Jan 25 2007, 12:38 AM']
Christ did say we need to obey the leaders of the land, and I do so only because Yeshua asks us to.

Obeying leadership of our countries and needing the leadership of countries are two different things though.

1st Samuel 8:5-18 perfectly describes what human leadership does, and if the original nation of Israel didn't need human leadership before they asked for a King, but got tricked by Satan to ask for one (Scripture doesn't spell that out, but after you read for yourself what these scriptures say, you will realize only one entity is so evil to make people curse themselves like that).

On when we sin by rebelling against what YHWH tells us to do, well, that would happen right now because of the people in charge, as it did for the Children of Israel.

Humanity needs freedom from the chains that hold us - and those chains are Religion and Government, but we are not ready for it yet. Especially today - when people can name 10 kinds of beers faster than the 10 commandments. . .

I'm just laying to ground work of YHWH to give that revelation of pure and utter freedom for people, laying the seeds if you will. He will come and those who have soft hearts who received this promise of YHWH for the future, who will gladly come to him and ask for his freedom from everything division that blinds us and binds us, and they will be his children, and they will rule with the Christ. That is YHWH's promise to us.

After all, we can all agree, there will come a time when the government will be on Yeshua's shoulders. What a time that will be. I can't wait to see the day he comes back and governments and religions will be dissolved, and the fullness of freedom and truth will reign in the hearts and minds of the believers across the world.
[/quote]
WHEN HE comes, it will be the end of the world.

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1175499' date='Jan 25 2007, 12:50 AM']
cmom,

I didn't know you were of such little faith.

You are correct, we are not ready for pure and utter freedom in YHWH yet. Satan, the God of this world, has ensured that won't happen. But YHWH established the original nation of Israel without any human authority in the old testament. They asked for a King, if you remember, and recieved a curse from the Almighty almost as strong as the ones YHWH gave Adam and Eve. Read 1st Samuel 8:5-18.

Unfortunately, the nation of Israel wasn't spiritually mature enough to be responsible with the freedom YHWH gave them. It is YHWH's will that we have no human leadership, and when Yeshua comes back, that will become evident, because the government will be on the shoulders of Yeshua. All governments, countries, borders, and religions will dissolve, and everybody will say Yeshua is Lord to the glory of YHWH the father. Yeshua will be the government and the spiritual belief system of the people.

We don't need human leadership, only the leadership of YHWH.

But we live in a world that has choosen Satan's way, and countries will continue to create armies to kill and destroy people of other countries, and new taxes to steal from its citizens, and religions will continue to brainwash their people to believe if they kill the infidels, they will go to Heaven. It is a messed up world that needs Yeshua to come back as soon as possible to fix this mess.
[/quote]
When HE gets it here, its all over, the world will be ending.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1175501' date='Jan 25 2007, 12:52 AM']
WHEN HE comes, it will be the end of the world.
When HE gets it here, its all over, the world will be ending.
[/quote]
Umm, read the last two chapters of the book of Revelation.

Revelation 20 -

If you didn't know that, I don't why Catholics say they believe the Bible.

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


If Satan is cast into prision for a 1,000 years, and he should not decieve the nations anymore until the 1,000 years are fulfilled, that means there is a 1,000 years where Yeshua rules over the world.

Is this not what the Catholic Church teaches. 1,000 years is 1,000 years in my books.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1175520' date='Jan 25 2007, 01:04 AM']
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: [b]and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.[/b]

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: [b]and they were judged every man according to their works.[/b][/quote]Just as an side note. I guess these passages really messes up the 'Saved by Faith' people. I guess that's Satan deceiving the Nations with this Saved by Faith business. That means the World has at least 1,000 years left once there are no more religions preaching "Saved by Faith Alone".