dairygirl4u2c Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 so what if he believed in the true prescence, but did not believe in the catholic church. is a priest allowed to give him the eucharist if billy graham wanted it? i understand that the orthodox and some like them are allowed to partake in catholic churches. so if he's not allowed, why are those others allowed? what's the reasoning? it'd seem to believe or not in the prescence would be the main feature that allow the orthodox, but there must be something i'm missing if he wouldn't be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Only Catholics in full communion with the Vicar of Christ who is Bishop of Rome are allowed to recieve of the Body of Christ. [quote name='Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott']For the worthy reception of the Eucharist the state of grace as well as the proper and pious disposition are necessary. (De fide as regards the state of grace.)[/quote] Only Catholics or the invincably ignorant can be in a state of grace. Once a non-Catholic is through his own fault, not in the Catholic Church, he is no longer invincably ignorant. [quote name='The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X']29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1172392' date='Jan 21 2007, 04:59 PM'] so what if he believed in the true prescence, but did not believe in the catholic church. is a priest allowed to give him the eucharist if billy graham wanted it? i understand that the orthodox and some like them are allowed to partake in catholic churches. so if he's not allowed, why are those others allowed? what's the reasoning? it'd seem to believe or not in the prescence would be the main feature that allow the orthodox, but there must be something i'm missing if he wouldn't be allowed. [/quote] How could you believe in the True Presence and not the Only Church where you could find it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 What Billy Graham wants has no effect on Church teaching or discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 21, 2007 Author Share Posted January 21, 2007 (edited) I've gone to CCs long enough to know that if you look at the back of any missalette you'll find the rules for who can partake, which says it includes orthodox that can. I may be mistaken, but I don't think so. I know for sure if it's an emergency an orthodox can. Here's this site that says they can too. [quote]The Eucharist is indeed the "work of the people" as the word liturgy means. Thus, all people in full communion with Christ and His Church are entitled to receive Christ's body and blood. The Catholic Church allows all Catholic and Orthodox Christians (including those in non-Chalcedonian Churches, e.g. Coptic Christians) in a state of grace to commune; Usually Orthodox Churches do not return the favor, but some will. [/quote] [url="http://www.ancient-future.net/eucharist.html"]http://www.ancient-future.net/eucharist.html[/url] And again my point. [quote]so if he's not allowed, why are those others allowed? what's the reasoning? it'd seem to believe or not in the prescence would be the main feature that allow the orthodox, but there must be something i'm missing if he wouldn't be allowed.[/quote] edit.. here's a more credible source.. [quote]canon law provides that only those Christians (such as the Eastern Orthodox) who believe in the Real Presence as Catholics do may take Communion in our churches (canon 844). All they need do is ask.[/quote] [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9903fea2.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9903fea2.asp[/url] look at Q and A 5. Edited January 21, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Unless Billy Graham (or others) makes a Profession of Faith in [b]all[/b] that the One Holy Catholic Church teaches, and is in a state of grace, and has fasted for the required time according to the laws of the Church he is attending (one hour for the Latin Rite), he is not eligible to receive holy communion. The Profession of Faith assumes that the person knows[b] all[/b] that the Catholic Church teaches. That's why anyone aspiring to be a Catholic must ordinarily attend classes and receive instructions. Eastern Orthodox Christians are forbidden by their own Churches from receiving communion in a Catholic Church. However, the Catholic Church does not forbid them (Code of Canon Law 844.3). Their beliefs are about 99 and 44/100% Catholic, and we pray for reunion of the two ancient Churches that were one for the first thousand years of Christianity. Jay ------------------------- Blessed Father Damien, pray for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 21, 2007 Author Share Posted January 21, 2007 What exactly is it about being orthodox that allows it though (even if it is only a technical allowance that isn't used)? i understand they are close, very close even. but what exactly about being close is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 [quote name='Katholikos' post='1172428' date='Jan 21 2007, 04:58 PM']Their beliefs are about 99 and 44/100% Catholic [/quote] Ah, but do they float? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 (edited) [quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1172434' date='Jan 21 2007, 06:10 PM'] Ah, but do they float? [/quote]<chuckle chuckle> [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1172430' date='Jan 21 2007, 06:02 PM'] What exactly is it about being orthodox that allows it though (even if it is only a technical allowance that isn't used)? i understand they are close, very close even. but what exactly about being close is it? [/quote]The Orthodox are considered by the Catholic Church to be in schism, not in heresy. Catechism of the Catholic Church 838 quote . . . Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain although imperfect communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." end quote Jay Edited January 21, 2007 by Katholikos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 21, 2007 Author Share Posted January 21, 2007 (edited) i guess. i'll take that to mean... they believe it all so much minus a little.. and someone not ortho and not catho would not have that attainment... and as you said they are in shism not heresy, so they are next to catholic anyway, which billy gram would not be. i guess i can take that. i do wonder if billy grahm or X were to have many of the beleifs of the orthodox whether he could be in his own church which is not ortho or catho and receive in a catho. i guess he wouldn't have holy orders though... and i'd have to really stretch it to get a new church, not ortho and not catho... to have holy orders involved. okay i'm done with this thread Edited January 21, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercy me Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1172457' date='Jan 21 2007, 06:33 PM'] i do wonder if billy grahm or X were to have many of the beleifs of the orthodox whether he could be in his own church which is not ortho or catho and receive in a catho. i guess he wouldn't have holy orders though... and i'd have to really stretch it to get a new church, not ortho and not catho... to have holy orders involved. okay i'm done with this thread [/quote] You are right. Basically it would come down to lack of apostolic succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 [quote name='Katholikos' post='1172435' date='Jan 21 2007, 04:16 PM'] <chuckle chuckle> The Orthodox are considered by the Catholic Church to be in schism, not in heresy. Catechism of the Catholic Church 838 quote . . . Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain although imperfect communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." end quote Jay [/quote] That's completely incorrect. The Greek Orthodox are in schism and in heresy. They deny several Dogmata, most notably: [quote name='The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by L. Ott']The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration. (De fide.) Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of all the Apostles and to be the visible head of the whole Church, by appointing him immediately and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction. (De fide.) According to Christ's ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Church and for all time. (De fide.) The successors of Peter in the Primacy are the bishops of Rome. (De fide.) The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church. (De fide.) The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. (De fide.) [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 i agree with STM. The orthodox are obviously schismatic because they refuse to submit to the Pope, but they obviously deny Defined Dogma, which makes them heretic. according to the CCC [quote]2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. [b]"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same[/b]; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him." [/quote] therefore a heretic is someone who is baptized but denies Dogma (like the orthodox). Some orthodox deny The immaculate conception, purgatory, Papal infallibility, and the list goes on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1172430' date='Jan 21 2007, 06:02 PM'] What exactly is it about being orthodox that allows it though (even if it is only a technical allowance that isn't used)? i understand they are close, very close even. but what exactly about being close is it? [/quote] In short, we share apostolic succession and celebrate all seven sacraments. We consider them illicit, but they are not invalid (like a Mormon Baptism or Anglican ordination are invalid). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share Posted January 23, 2007 i thought the anglican's had legitimate ordinations, which is why they have legitimate eucharistic celebration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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