Church Unity

[Circle_Master]

We seem to disagree often on what unity in the church should be. So I'm going to outline the basics of what I believe Scripture teaches it as, and if you wish to comment on problems with my interpretation or show a few passages how unity should be seen differently or clarify a different meaning of the word, go for it.

Here we go:

This is the call to unity in Ephesians 4:1-6

1I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

You say one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, and we agree with all of that. We also agree in all the meanings of them [ie Christ is Lord, baptism is all believers and spiritual (1Cor12:13), one God (trinity) and Father of all (functionally the Father acts as head of trinity)] except for faith. When we go on in the passage, we see why this is so.

Verses 7 through 13 talk about gifts given to the church, diversity given and verse 14 says why "so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes." This diversity is within the functions of the church members and who does what which we can also agree on. I'm not sure if this could involve denominations, but that isn't my point so I won't even consider/go there.

Now the clencher is back in verse 13 which gives a summary of what church unity is. It says this "until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". So unity will come when we attain two things "to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". They are:

1) unity of the faith in the Son of God

2) unity of the knowledge of the Son of God

You may say instantly - of course! That is what the Catholic Church says!, but keep in mind the next line why we must seek this. "so that we may no longer be children." Now you agree that throughout our lives the grace of God is applied in different ways and we become Christlike. This unity is part of that process, so what is implied here is that no one has it at first, but that it comes later.

James also agree's when he writes in James 1:2-8

"2Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

5If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

Some things to notice just like unity in Ephesians was so we may no longer be children, and just like in Ephesians the unity is a result in knowledge and faith in the Son of God - James says that we must ask and seek for this through our lives so we are not tossed about by the wind. This again is a process and a growth. You guys seem to indicate unity is an absolute and it always will be - nothing here seems to indicate that, and in fact everything points to a growth in unity within the church which is brought on by diversity.

Some thoughts?

[Laudate_Dominum]

You guys seem to indicate unity is an absolute and it always will be - nothing here seems to indicate that, and in fact everything points to a growth in unity within the church which is brought on by diversity.

I would first ask what the literal sense of a passage is. Is a particular passage that speaks of unity meant to be an ecclesiological statement about the nature of Church unity as a whole? Or is it something more like a pastor addressing his congregation and exhorting them to unity. A pastor can speak about his newly evangelized flock as children in the process of growing up. This would fit with Paul's letters which were often very pastoral letters directed to groups of people who were many times experiencing divisions and dissentions in coming to embrace the gospel and leaving behind their former ways of life. Applying Paul's statements to today's situation is not that clear cut.

It's true unity is an absolute in a certain sense. There is one faith, one baptism, on Lord Jesus Christ. These are absolutes. But of course we, as Christians, do not experience a perfect unity with each other. But in a metaphysical the mystical body of Christ is one. The Church has always had a plurality. The original apostles and evangelists established Christian communities in diverse places and as the Church grew in the patristic age there were numerous autonomous churches unified with a hierarchy (Bishops and Priests) and in union with the vicar of Christ, the Pope of Rome. The Pope is and was the principle of unity in the ancient Church. You may say this structure is not clear in the apostolic age and I would grant this to some extent. The Church was a baby and so all of the structure that we see today was not yet in place although the seeds were planted. The apostles, with Peter as the chief, was the seed of the hierarchy of Bishops united to the Pope. Another principle of unity, which stems from the authority of the Pope and Bishops in union with him is the ecumenical council. In the early Church you knew you were in Christ's Church is you were under a Catholic Bishop and accepted the teachings of the councils. The first Church council is recorded in the book of Acts as you probably know.

[M.SIGGA]

Now the clencher is back in verse 13 which gives a summary of what church unity is. It says this "until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". So unity will come when we attain two things "to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". They are:

1) unity of the faith in the Son of God

2) unity of the knowledge of the Son of God

Brilliant! The dividing factor however is the definition of faith.

The Catholic Faith is faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and that He established His Church on Earth to guide the faithful, so anyone that is a person of faith would be called to His Church. This is a collection of Christians unified in all aspects of faith and morals.

I don't want to impose anything on any other Christian faith, but it's my guess that the Protestant faith believes unity comes totally from the point of view that a person accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and all other aspects of faith and morals are up to personal discernment and interpretation. If this is correct, I don't understand how there can ever be total Christian unity if the Protestant standard was the only expression of faith because there is too much left up to personal interpretation.

Where there is any indifference and disagreement there cannot be unity.

[Laudate_Dominum]

So unity does not exclude diversity. The Catholic Church today is made of up of many churches with independence hierarchies that are in union with Rome. The Eastern Catholic Churches even have their own canon law because they are autonomous.

There is a certain degree of unity between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches because they have valid Sacraments, a valid hierarchy, accept all the councils before the schism (although some of the Eastern churches are a mixed bag) and they even accept the principle of the Primacy of the Pope of Rome although they understand it in different ways. There is less unity between the Catholic Church and protestant ecclesial communities since they don't have all the Sacraments, lack a valid ordination and hierarchy and have become more and more distanced from the teachings of the Councils and Sacred Tradition.

Jesus Christ's solemn prayer before his passion and death was for the unity of Christians. He foresaw the turbulent history of the Church and knew how much His Church would be disfigured and divided down through the ages. But the point is if you look at all the evidence (Scripture, Tradition, the Fathers, History, etc.) and ask what Christ established as His Church the answer is the Catholic Church. People in union with Bishops who are in union with the successor of Peter. Anything less is against the unity of Christ's Church.

[Anna]

Beautiful explanation, Laudate_Dominum!

Pax Christi. <><

[God Conquers]

Diversity is amesome! However, those two things you outlined which were of paramount importance to Unity are: Unity of FAITH and KNOWLEDGE of and in Jesus Christ. This implies unity of doctrine. If I have knowledge and faith of Christ in the Holy Sacrament of the Altar, and you do not, then we do not have the unity you described.

[phatcatholic]

i think the "clincher" is in verses 3-6. here's a post i wrote a couple days before christmas that comments on these verses:

"make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit...."

unity of the spirit--that is very important. but, when i look at protestantism i see 20,000 denominations, which in itself is cause for question, but the clincher is this--every single one of those claims inspiration by the Holy Spirit to believe what they believe. to one the spirit says "sola fide." to another, the spirit says "sola scriptura." to another the spirit says "calvinist predestination." to another the spirit says "you must speak in tongues." the spirit is contradicting itself here. this definitely doesn't seem like "unity of spirit" to me.

"there is one body and one spirit..."

this part of the verse is SO important (shew! i need to calm down, sorry, hehe). protestants claim that they are one in a spiritual union. but this only fulfills half of the obligation. the verse here calls for a unity of body and spirit. a body is a visible thing, it is something concrete, something you can touch. now, one may reply that the word "body" here is used symbolically, as in a spiritual body. but, the fact that it separates the two into "one body" and "one spirit" shows that there is a definite distinction between the two, that there are two unions. the catholic church can stake claim to this unity. we are visibly one--we are one body--b/c we have one earthly leadership, a hierarchy of bishops and a pope to which we all adhere to. we are also one body in the sacraments and in the mass. the same elements exist in every single mass held on earth.

our mystical union comes in our united belief. you will never find St. John Catholic Church teaching one thing, and St. Peter's Church down the street teaching something else. our mystical union is also seen in the one Spirit that sanctifies us in one baptism and who protects the entire Church from falling into error.

can Protestantism really claim such a unity. i could maaayyyybee be stretched into believing a unity in spirit (even though i think of shown that this isn't so), but a unity in body is impossible.

"just as you were called to one hope when you were called...."

even this one hope means different things to different protestant denominations. afterall this refers to a hope for salvation. but, this type of hope does not even exist to all those who believe in "assurance of salvation." where is their need to hope if they are assured of heaven already? this "one hope" is also dependent on how we define salvation. as i also showed in the "christianity.com" thread, salvation means many different things to many different denominations. so, i don't see "one hope" in protestantism either.

"one Lord, one faith, one baptism...."

is their one Lord in protestantism? many denominations define this "one Lord" in many different ways. pentecostals, for example, don't even believe in the trinity, which is paramount in describing our Lord. this example alone should suffice, but there are more. calvinists think the Lord chose a certain number of elect, and damns the rest. the Lord saves some upon a profession of faith, but others only when they speak in tongues, or only when they are baptized. this does not look like the same Lord to me.

is their one faith in protestantism? not when so many protestants put their faith in so many different things. some have faith that God will always heal everyone who asks for it, and when He doesn't its for lack of faith. some have faith that you WILL speak in tongues when u recieve the Holy Spirit. some have faith that all they need is faith, and they are saved forever. some have faith in a one-person God. others have faith in a three-person God.

with all the definitions of baptism and wether it is required, protestants are not united in one baptism either. some say its only symbolic. others say thru baptism ur sins are not erased, just covered over like a coat. others say that all ur sins are wiped away. still others say that baptism is not necessary at all. way to many different baptisms to be one...

i hope this helps.......pax christi,

phatcatholic

[Laudate_Dominum]

Another point would be that the unity of the first Christians was based on belonging to a community united with the Apostle's of Jesus Christ and those appointed as leaders by them. This is evident in Scripture. Similarly in the early Church the unity of the Church was based on authority, not the Bible or anything else. Before the canon was defined (by the authority of the Apostle's successors), different churches used different canons. Some parts of the Church accepted the Epistle of Barnabas, the Epistles of Clement (an early Pope), the Sherherd of Hermas, the Didache, etc. as part of the New Testament. Some rejected the book of Revelation, some of Paul's letters, etc.. So authority was the main point. You were united with Christ's flock if you were united to one of his shepherds. As Catholics we can know we are in Christ's flock because Peter is feeding us.

There was no denominationalism in the early Church. If you weren't in union with the institutional church (Bishops, etc) you were a heretic, an outsider, anathema.

When St. Augustine went to bring a sect of heretics back to the true faith he didn't say, as long as you believe x,y,z you are in union and are cool. They had to renounce their errors and submit to the authority of the Church which speaks with the authority of Christ on earth in matters of faith and morals.

So the basis of unity is authority and continuity with the past (Tradition), not with holding to a kind of "mere christianity". Although there is a degree of unity between all Christians insofar as we believe in Christ and are baptized. But there cannot be true Christian unity apart from union with the Pope. The office of the papacy was instituted by Christ as the principle of unity amond the members of the Church.

[Laudate_Dominum]

"there is one body and one spirit..."

this part of the verse is SO important (shew! i need to calm down, sorry, hehe). protestants claim that they are one in a spiritual union. but this only fulfills half of the obligation. the verse here calls for a unity of body and spirit. a body is a visible thing, it is something concrete, something you can touch. now, one may reply that the word "body" here is used symbolically, as in a spiritual body. but, the fact that it separates the two into "one body" and "one spirit" shows that there is a definite distinction between the two, that there are two unions. the catholic church can stake claim to this unity. we are visibly one--we are one body--b/c we have one earthly leadership, a hierarchy of bishops and a pope to which we all adhere to. we are also one body in the sacraments and in the mass. the same elements exist in every single mass held on earth.

Phat article phatcatholic!!! :beer:

[Jake Huether]

Phat article phatcatholic!!!

ditto!

That's a keeper, fo' sho'.

[phatcatholic]

Phat article phatcatholic!!! 

ditto!

That's a keeper, fo' sho'.

hehe, thanks guys. that means alot comin from u two, "fo' sho'! :cool:

[Confessionator741]

Diversity and Unity....

It may seem over used, but the phrase "united we stand, divided we fall."

Circle master provided us with this

Now the clencher is back in verse 13 which gives a summary of what church unity is. It says this "until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". So unity will come when we attain two things "to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". They are:

1) unity of the faith in the Son of God

2) unity of the knowledge of the Son of God

One, Unity of the faith of Christ. This one seems to say, as long as you belive in Christ, you're 50% there. But i think you really have to dig this one a lil deeper. Faith in Christ? Faith in his love, mercy, works, miracles, existance..., of course. But what about words, faith in Christ directives. Directives such as Matthew 16:18-20; "so I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out agaisnt it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven."

Ok, so we DEF have to agree like whoa that this was the instution of Peter as the "leader" after His death...

good.now look at this...It is from the Gospel of John chapter 5. "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts away, and every branch that dies bear fruit he ptunes to make it bear even more. You are pruned already, by means of the work that i have spoken to you. Make your home in me, as i make mine is you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, but must remain part of the vine, neither can you inless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. anyone who dies no remain in me is like branch that has been trhown away-- he withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire, and they are burned. If you remain in and my words remain in you, you may ask what you will and you shall get it. It is to the glory of my Father that you should bear much fruit, and then you will be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so i ahve loves you. Remain in my love. (John 5:1-9)

How many times does Jesus say, in just 9 verses, that we are the branches are we are to remain in him...and when we stray...we are virtually cut off. We as a church are the body of Christ, he, of course, is the head. So if we, the Catholic Chruch, are the body, and were not in Gods favor..."ever branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts away..." Unity in the Body of Christ, is Unity in the Catholic Church. For 2000 years we have been the body of Christ, we have not been "pruned"....

Since we have not been "pruned" this tells us that we recieve knowledge and instruction and out leadership from Christ, or the Chair of Peter. The Catholic church has been putting the Faith in Christ into words and into action for the last 2000 years, and it is no suprise that when mere human movements of seperation and schism come, "they [will] do these things beacuse they have never known either the Father or myself." How much more true can that be????

If the Chruch is Unity with Christ, then how can anybody, in the name of God, try and seperate. It is just as John 16:3 says... "they [will] do these things beacuse they have never known either the Father or myself." They don't know the Father, because they aren't in union with the father. If they are not in union with the father, which is the first half of circles fullness of Christ, then they cannot be in the knowledge of the Father either! they just can't! If the chruch i Christ body, and the doctrines we set forth are from the Chair of Peter, and they don't believe in the Knowledge of the Chair, then they do not know the Knowledge of Christ!

I agree circle, i think that those two things are essential in being in union with Christ.

Bravo on bringing it up. it gave me something to post about

B

[Laudate_Dominum]

Circle,

Here is a short sample of quotes from the inside flap of my bible (I have a little concordance that I made). These quotes pertain the the nature of the Church that Christ established.

Unity:

Jn 10:16 = "there shall be one fold and one shepherd."

Recall the "feed my sheep" thing. Obviously Christ is the one shepherd in the strict sense, but King David's vicar didn't make him any less the King.

1 Cor 1:10 = "I urge that there be no dissentions among you."

Phil 2:2 = "Be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing." (in other words a true unity of doctrine)

Jn 17:17-23 = "I pray that they may be one, as we are one..." And Jesus and the Father are REALLY one! Substantially one in fact which is more perfectly one than anything which exists in the universe. So Christ must really want His Church to be as one as possible. Not countless sects and denominations which often agree on some major things. I guess they all pretty much agree on Sola Scriptura which is a condemned heresy.

Authority:

Mt 16:18 = we know the verse all too well. Peter=rock, keys, etc.

Lk 10:16 = "whoever hears you [the apostles], hears me; whoever rejects you, rejects me, and Him who sent me."

Mt 18:18 = power to legislate (bind & loose). Granted first, and primarily to Peter who also bears the keys as you know.

Mt 18:17 = "if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be to you as a gentile and a tax collector" (In other words let him be anathema.)

Jn 16:13 = "guided by Holy Spirit into all truth." Truth is one, not whatever floats you (or your denominations) boat.

1 Tim 3:15 = "pillar and foundation of the truth." (That's the One, Holy, Catholic  and Apostolic Church!)

Early Patristic Quotes:

St. Irenaeus (200 AD), Against Heresies = "The Church, having recieved this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated thoughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth."

You should read this whole treatise if you ever get a chance, he has some profound things to say about Our Lady and many other not so protestant things.

St. Cyprian (250 AD), On the Unity of the Church = "God is one and Christ is one, and one is His Church, and the faith is one, and His people welded together by the glue of concord into a solid unity of body. Unity cannot be rent asunder, nor can the one body of the Church, through the division of its structure, be divided into seperate pieces."

As I said in an earlier post, denominationalism was entirely foreign to the Pastristic era. In fact, historically speaking, it's a product of the protestant revolt against the vicar of Jesus Christ, the principle of unity among believers.

Obviously this is just a sample, but it supports the things I was saying above in response to your article. I felt I did not have enough quotes in the things I wrote earlier. Peace.

Edited January 22, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[PedroX]

Circle,

Can you clear about what you said about Baptism? I think you said we all agreed that it was spiritual. Please elaborate.

thanks.

peace...