Sending More Troops

[catholic_apologetics]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1168916' date='Jan 18 2007, 09:44 AM']
Call them all home. I no longer believe in this war. At this point, it does not seem that the US has a reasonable chance of success (not because our opponents are better, but because they don't follow the rules of engagement), which means that it's not just to engage in it.
[/quote]

Are you somehow engaged in military intelligence or another government think-tank that you would have the adequate knowledge to know that the US does not have a reasonable chance of success? To take a nation like Iraq, remove the old government, incorporate a new government and suffer as few loses as we have, and do it all in only a few years is an incredible overwhelming success. The latest on the news wires today is that the Iraqi government will be ready for lower US troop numbers as soon as this fall. Have you thought about what happens to the citizens of Iraq if we suddenly abandon Iraq?

[Jaime]

[quote]Are you somehow engaged in military intelligence or another government think-tank that you would have the adequate knowledge to know that the US does not have a reasonable chance of success? [/quote]

Actually he is

[Didymus]

so thats what the aftermass project is... I've always wanted to know

[Sojourner]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1169525' date='Jan 18 2007, 06:47 PM']
Actually he is
[/quote]

[CrossCuT]

[size=1]B.

Pulling out now would give the terrorists a chance to come together and gain strength.
[/size]

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='CrossCuT' post='1169540' date='Jan 18 2007, 08:10 PM']
[size=1]B.

Pulling out now would give the terrorists a chance to come together and gain strength.
[/size]
[/quote]

Yes, but apparently our soilders have eliminated a lot of them. Or at least that was the plan.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='catholic_apologetics' post='1169383' date='Jan 18 2007, 06:59 PM']
Are you somehow engaged in military intelligence or another government think-tank that you would have the adequate knowledge to know that the US does not have a reasonable chance of success? To take a nation like Iraq, remove the old government, incorporate a new government and suffer as few loses as we have, and do it all in only a few years is an incredible overwhelming success. The latest on the news wires today is that the Iraqi government will be ready for lower US troop numbers as soon as this fall. Have you thought about what happens to the citizens of Iraq if we suddenly abandon Iraq?
[/quote]
First, I'd like to say that hot stuff was joking. I don't have any special knowledge.

However, since 10% (100 million) of the world's Muslims claim to be militant fundamentalist extremists, and since these do not follow the Geneva Convention or any other established rules of engagement, it can be logically concluded that this will only ever be drawn out indefinitely, especially considering that these Muslims generally procreate far more than the West. The fact of the matter is that defending another nation from tyrrany is not listed as one of the reasons for just war; we have to let them handle their own conflicts. Additionally, a war which is drawn out ad infinitem has no chance of success (war without end, by definition, cannot have success), therefore, another criterion is down.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1168960' date='Jan 18 2007, 11:54 AM']
[snip]

boys and girls implies that they're children, which they are not. They are adults, by any standard. Men and Women. Don't insult them by implying that they are anything less.
[snip]
[/quote]


I think he meant it as a term of endearment.



If you americans care for a Canadien point of view;

Things have gone too far already.

It would be irresponsible to leave Iraq to a civil war.

20,000 additional soldiers is their 'last chance'. Let's pray they take it.

Pulling out now would not be admitting defeat (USA won this war - come on now face reality), BUT defeat would be interpreted by those who wish to perpetuate hatred. Hence a 'one last chance' seems to be the only feasable alternative.



For the record, I never supported the US war in Iraq, however, at the crossroads where we stand, I believe there is no other logical or reasonable alternative than to 'back' the president in this 'final chance'.


for what its worth, a canadien 2cents (about 1.87cents US right now).


thank you

[Socrates]

Basically, if we want to decisively win this war, it will take more troops. It will take more effort. It will take blood. It will take sacrifice.
That is the only way wars can be decisively won. We can't fight a half-a**ed "limited war" and expect to win this war.
World War II was won by vast sacrifice on the part of this country which would be unthinkable by most Americans today.
This is a reality it seems most present-day Americans simply don't want to face.

However, a definitive objective for victory is needed. This does not seem to have been well thought out by our current leaders.

My thoughts on the war have changed somewhat since hearing Fr. Nnorom speak on militant Islam. The war in Iraq is part of a large struggle against militant Islam, or so-called "Islamofacism." Pulling out at this point will be seen by the enemy as a sign of U.S. weakness and be likely to embolden militant Islamists worldwide. Plus, Iraq is currently in a state of chaos, and simply leaving Iraq as it is will not lead to peace and stability, but the rise of a power to fill the current vacuum. And such a power will likely not be friendly to the U.S. and the West.

As to those who say Islamic terrorism will cease if only the U.S. pull out of the Middle East, it should be noted that Islamic agression has lately been in the rise in Europe, in countries that have been quite friendly toward Arab states, and have favored Palestine over Israel.

[Jaime]

[quote] First, I'd like to say that hot stuff was joking. I don't have any special knowledge[/quote]

Of course you'd [i]like[/i] to say that...


*wink wink*

[Aloysius]

Raphael: if the goal was to completely eradicate all extremists in Iraq then you might be right. but our only goal is to make the government strong enough to police itself.

the terrorists in Iraq will be policed as criminals by an Iraqui state after we are gone. when the situation is like that, we will have succeeded.

to that end, we can succeed at our mission objective. like I said, we were already victorious in the first mission objective; this objective is to make the Iraqui state strong enough to police itself.

the whole goal has always been to eventually pull the troops out. but you're being ridiculous in saying we should do so now because you don't believe in the war. it's absurd; we've won the war, all we have to do now is make the Iraqui state strong enough to secure itself and we'll have been successful.

[goldenchild17]

As much as I have lost respect for the war and it's agenda, I believe we need to stay and finish what we started. Just my opinion but I don't think it would be fair to all the soldiers, not to mention their families, who invested so much time and put themselves in danger to see something come of this. If we pull out what does that tell them? It tells them that they were not good enough. That's not something I think they want, or need to hear, after all they went through. And I don't think it would be fair to the Iraqis. It was great to get rid of Saddam and his government. But then what? As the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day. It takes a long time to get a government up and running and stable. To leave them high and dry now would likely not leave them much better off than they were before this whole thing started. If the insurgents are still having quite a bit of success even with us there, then imagine what they might be able to do if we pull out. The Iraqi military I doubt is ready yet to handle it all on their own. If we leave the insurgents could quite likely take back everything and restore the terroristic government that we have spent almost four years in taking out. Nice morale boost that would be.

That said, the Iraqis need to start doing more, need to start working harder. This is their country, and while we have a lot invested here, it really must be their interest. I'm not there so I can't accurately determine this, but it does seem that they could be working a little bit harder on their end.

[heavenseeker]

we should never have gone into Iraq in the first place but being that we did we need to finish the job and stay there until the country is ready for us to pull out of it.

[catholic_apologetics]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1169584' date='Jan 18 2007, 09:40 PM']
First, I'd like to say that hot stuff was joking. I don't have any special knowledge.

However, since 10% (100 million) of the world's Muslims claim to be militant fundamentalist extremists, and since these do not follow the Geneva Convention or any other established rules of engagement, it can be logically concluded that this will only ever be drawn out indefinitely, especially considering that these Muslims generally procreate far more than the West.[/quote]

The only solution then that you can think of is to lay down and die? I don't have the knowledge to say for sure, but coming from sources one better than Fox News or CNN it seems that Iraqi's appreciate not being held captive under tyranny and our troops are proud to serve in Iraq and help those people whom they are helping protect.

[quote]The fact of the matter is that defending another nation from tyrrany is not listed as one of the reasons for just war; we have to let them handle their own conflicts.[/quote]

Telling a dying individual at the hands of a ruthless enemy to "handle it yourself" when one is able and ready to be of aid is cruel.

[quote] Additionally, a war which is drawn out ad infinitem has no chance of success (war without end, by definition, cannot have success), therefore, another criterion is down.[/quote]

The war was already successful. Perhaps you have been influenced a little too much by the "liberal" media and politicians. There will always be conflict in the middle east, but that is different from their always being war. If we are able to have a presence until Iraq is ready to be on its own, history will look very well at the number of lives not only saved by America's actions, but the better quality of life that people who were not able to defend themselves or make decisions about their future are now living and able to make. History for now will not see the decisions the US has made regarding to Iraq as favorable, but this isn't unusual for any great achievement in history.

[Winchester]

We could probably win with what we've got if we changed our tactics.

Our casualties aren't high enough for the hand wringing and wailing about failure.

Reducing or pulling out would be a bad idea.

People who don't believe in war can't really do anything but wail and protests. They're not going to revolt because they don't believe in war, so the sane world is safe from them.