Crog Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Dostoevsky places the greatest question in literature on Ivan’s lips in The Brothers Karamazov: “What do I care for a hell for oppressors?” When confronted by that question, we see what kind of Christian we really are. We can only be a Christian who imagines Heaven to be a sort of cosmic Disneyland if we somehow want there to be people in Hell. But if we conceive of Heaven as more of a state of being, grounded in absolute and pure love, then we wouldn’t really be in Heaven if we were fine and dandy with the sufferings of others. St. Catherine of Siena wanted to be so united with Christ that she would stand at the gates of Hell blocking the way. Aquinas was much more right than wrong, but he was absolutely wrong on this. Balthasar’s old book “Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved” is a great book to shape our thinking here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaxHominibus Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 The elect will delight in God's Justice, which is Holy and Goor. His Justice is meted out both to the Elect, in their salvation, and to the damned, in their torment. This is Justice and will be met with great Joy by those who love God. This is not the same as delighting in their torment; the object of delight is always Justice, never torment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogtag Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Delighting in someone's eternal torment is pretty messed up. Nobody who is infected with divine charity could find delight in such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 As PaxHominibus stated, "This is not the same as delighting in their torment; the object of delight is always Justice, never torment." [Emphasis mine] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adopted96 Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Seeing "guest's" admittedly twisted reply along with the quotes is one of the best arguments against the doctrine of eternal conscious torment if I ever heard one. Guest sounds like one who hasn't met Jesus, or who is yet still to be transformed by Love himself. We all are on this journey, but wishing to see someone tormented rather than adopting the heart of God that "none should perish" and that "all should come to repentance" is itself a lack of repentance and evidence of hard-heartedness. Wrestling with this myself has led to a pretty strong conviction regarding the universal reconciliation of all things, including the so-called "damned". I see God's punishments as restorative and corrective rather than purely retributive, even if they are "severe". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 On 7/22/2019 at 5:30 PM, Ice_nine said: Before he crossed over to the dark side. Era Might crossed over to the dark side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 Was he the recent guest who politely requested that his account be deleted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 18 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said: Was he the recent guest who politely requested that his account be deleted? THAT WAS ERA????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 No idea. I was hoping someone did know. He was certainly rather far from the Church last I saw him post, and drifting further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 On 12/7/2020 at 1:54 PM, Jaime said: Era Might crossed over to the dark side? I remember him posting that he was on the verge of going to confession and rejoining the church but was unable to for intellectual/ideological reasons iirc. This was years ago. I could never quite nail down what he actually believed. A lot of the time it seemed purposefully opaque. But it certainly wasn't orthodox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 On 12/9/2020 at 5:11 AM, Jaime said: THAT WAS ERA????? I really don't think so, I think it was an older member who hadn't been around for quite a long time. My personal guess was Good Friday. but they didn't say so we don't know, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Era who had been around much more recently and the style of writing was very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 On 1/22/2020 at 3:08 PM, Luigi said: As PaxHominibus stated, "This is not the same as delighting in their torment; the object of delight is always Justice, never torment." [Emphasis mine] When it is claimed the delight is in God's Justice, I do get the feeling (rightly or wrongly) that there is praise and thanksgiving that other sinners got their deserving and that for which they had asked intrinsic to mortal sin. On 1/22/2020 at 1:49 PM, Dogtag said: Delighting in someone's eternal torment is pretty messed up. Nobody who is infected with divine charity could find delight in such a thing. I very much agree. In Heaven we are perfected in Charity to one's full capacity. When I consider that Jesus through Love lived and cruelly died for the whole of mankind past, present and to come, I cannot imagine having any joy or whatsoever in the loss of one single soul. Frankly, if I get to see or know about souls in torment when I am hopefully in Heaven, I simply aint gonna like it one iota ....considering it from my perspective at this point anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 When I consider where I have really badly slipped up in my life, I know that when I arrive at Judgement, I am going to need a stupendous amount of God's Mercy. I am so terribly thankful that His Mercy and Love is Infinite. Hang on a minute, do I grasp what God's Glory really is and therefore what my offences really are, whether mortal or venial, against Him and His Glory? No I do not. I might think I grasp what God's Glory is but I would be so far from the reality it isn't funny! I am lacking in FULL knowledge. Do I grasp what Hell actually is in reality? I might think that I do, but I would be so far from the reality it isn't funny again! I lack FULL knowledge again. Therefore, at the time did I have full knowledge in order to have committed sin mortally? And so I travel on in hope of the salvation of all souls. And if so, then I hope I am in their number. No pious platitudes either !!! None of the above is any excuse whatsoever to commit mortal or venial sin. It is a philosophical type reasoning only and not doctrine or dogma, to which I fully assent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 2 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said: and not doctrine or dogma, to which I fully assent Should read - "both to which I fully consent" i.e. doctrine and dogma. Indeed I consent to all that The Church teaches and for life, I hope. I still seek to understand what I believe wherever I might be able: St Anselm "faith seeking understanding". 2 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said: Therefore, at the time did I have full knowledge in order to have committed sin mortally? The above is an absolutely outstanding witness, to me, of God's Loving Mercy in what He has revealed to us and proclaimed by His Church. But I am only sort of philosophizing or musing, pondering, not proclaiming in any way. I could be very wrong, outstandingly wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 The deleted account made no insufferable comments about sports, so I doubt it was Era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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