Clown Mass (yes, Its Real)

[mortify]

kindling the fire

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1161505' date='Jan 11 2007, 02:28 PM']
1) We pray for bishops every week, or we should be
2) Most of the people who visit here regularly should be aware that these are abuses. It's the people who are actually doing these things who need guidance. So ... if all we're doing is saying "*Gasp!* That's awful!" how exactly does that actually address the problems?
But ... this is not "the enemy" ... these are misguided brothers and sisters in the church. How does ridiculing them help to build up the church and make it stronger?
[/quote]


The fact remains people don't do as they should... for all kinds of reasons... Americans should have always been aware of terrorist, but it took seeing 9/11 on television to wake them up to what they should have known.

Also it is the people who do these things that should have known that things like clown masses are abuses, but they didn't know what they should. Because no one has shown them, as they should.

Edited January 12, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[mortify]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1161505' date='Jan 11 2007, 02:28 PM']
1) We pray for bishops every week, or we should be
2) Most of the people who visit here regularly should be aware that these are abuses. It's the people who are actually doing these things who need guidance. So ... if all we're doing is saying "*Gasp!* That's awful!" how exactly does that actually address the problems?
But ... this is not "the enemy" ... these are misguided brothers and sisters in the church. How does ridiculing them help to build up the church and make it stronger?
[/quote]

You know, sometimes we need a good shock. How many people knew there were clown masses? I didn't. Had anyone told me I would hardly believe it. Heh, to be honest with you I didn't even know there was a vocation crisis! After my conversion, when I came back to a parish that had four priests and two deacons I thought that's how it was all over the country. I was *shocked* to discover seminaries could barely get one person every two years or so. The shock is what wakes us up, and its only then that we can do anything about it. How can we address problems if we're not shocked by them first?

Who's ridiculing these folks? Unfortunately, it seems you were more shocked with me posting a sacrilegious mass than the sacrilege itself. What's up with that? You wrote a lot, [b]sometimes even speculating my intention[/b]:
[quote]
What is the point of posting stuff like this? Is it just so we watch it and feel superior to this priest and this congregation because we would never do this?
[/quote]
and...
[quote]
Posting this stuff so that people are shocked. Shocked! doesn't seem to be a worthwhile endeavor at all. Methinks it smells of taking the speck out of our brothers' eyes while ignoring the logs in our own eyes.
[/quote]

Methinks you should stop speculating

Why would you even speculate I have sinister intentions in the first place? [u]Especially when I clearly point out my intentions:[/u] [b]what you guy's think about the clown's reasoning for altering the liturgy and pointing out an act of heroism against sacrilege[/b]. It's clearly laid out in my post if you care to read it.

Addressing flagrant abuses of the Sacred Liturgy is not a case of logs growing out of eyes. These are the types of statements that CRIPPLE any meaningful discussion of serious problems. I'm sorry but there's no way of getting aware of these things without talking about them. And if talking about problems bothers you so much then maybe you should just not pay attention to them.



On the flip side, I'm willing to bet both the sacrilege and the act of heroism will wake some people up. That way, hopefully if this ever happens again there will be more people yelling out sacrilege and the rest cheering instead of laughing.

Edited January 12, 2007 by mortify

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1162453' date='Jan 12 2007, 04:26 AM']
I was *shocked* to discover seminaries could barely get one person every two years or so. The shock is what wakes us up, and its only then that we can do anything about it. How can we address problems if we're not shocked by them first?[/quote]

On the other hand, there are some dioceses that are doing just fine with religious vocations, seminaries with more students entering every years, and religious orders outgrowing their existing spaces.

I think what we should ask ourselves is what people the people at these liturgically abusive Masses are really searching for? We know that Christ satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, but if a regular ol' Mass leaves them hungry for something more, why should we blame them for searching?

I think part of the problem is that Mass has a reputation for being boring and uninspiring. That's what I hear from my formerly Catholic co-workers and it's what we see in movies or TV shows. There's something wrong with that picture. I don't know how that can change on a large scale (besides prayer), but until it does there will always be restless people looking to spice things up or make the faith more "relevant."

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1164019' date='Jan 14 2007, 12:54 AM']
On the other hand, there are some dioceses that are doing just fine with religious vocations, seminaries with more students entering every years, and religious orders outgrowing their existing spaces.

I think what we should ask ourselves is what people the people at these liturgically abusive Masses are really searching for? We know that Christ satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, but if a regular ol' Mass leaves them hungry for something more, why should we blame them for searching?

I think part of the problem is that Mass has a reputation for being boring and uninspiring. That's what I hear from my formerly Catholic co-workers and it's what we see in movies or TV shows. There's something wrong with that picture. I don't know how that can change on a large scale (besides prayer), but until it does there will always be restless people looking to spice things up or make the faith more "relevant."
[/quote]
The dioceses doing fine with vocations are those (such as my own) with orthodox priests and reverent liturgies.
It is those with the clown and Barney foolishness that are in a crisis.

From what I've read of such things, I really don't think people are leaving good liturgies in droves for "clown masses" and similar nonsense. These are things occur in liberal heterodox parishes, where the liberal priests have been perpetuating such foolishness for decades, with congregations that do not really know anything else.

And people on here seem to be under the impression that "clown masses" are some Next Big Thing in liturgy, but the fact is that such liturgical craziness had its heyday in the 1970s, and is much less common now, thanks be to God.

This is not to say that liturgical abuse is not still a serious problem in many places, and does not need to be opposed, but we need to put things in proper perspective. This is the stale remnants of 70s-era silliness, not some shocking new development.
And this is from the Bay Area, the most liberal part of this country, so this should not be surprising.

Let us pray for more good priests and a restoration of the sacred in liturgy - probably time better spent than gawking at videos of goofy irreverence in loopy Left-Coast parishes.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Socrates

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1164019' date='Jan 14 2007, 12:54 AM']
I think part of the problem is that Mass has a reputation for being boring and uninspiring.
[/quote]

That's only possible if you don't believe in the Real Presence. Even the most boring homily with the coarsest sounding priest can be made beautiful if Jesus is present. This of course includes that not only substance but *form* be followed through in the liturgy. Even people who don't believe in Jesus are blown away by a beautiful liturgy... because they know that there is [i]something[/i] there.

Unfortunately most Catholics don't believe in the Real Presence and the liturgy is... well you know. What can we do about it? [b]Pray.[/b] Pray for God to raise a great saint who will go against the grain fearlessly and with zeal.


St Athanasius, ora pro nobis

[SRMiller]

[quote name='mortify' post='1165576' date='Jan 15 2007, 08:20 AM']
That's only possible if you don't believe in the Real Presence. Even the most boring homily with the coarsest sounding priest can be made beautiful if Jesus is present. This of course includes that not only substance but *form* be followed through in the liturgy. Even people who don't believe in Jesus are blown away by a beautiful liturgy... because they know that there is [i]something[/i] there.

Unfortunately most Catholics don't believe in the Real Presence and the liturgy is... well you know. What can we do about it? [b]Pray.[/b] Pray for God to raise a great saint who will go against the grain fearlessly and with zeal.
St Athanasius, ora pro nobis
[/quote]

Yeah, my brother, who is Methodist, says that he can't help but feel awe-inspired when walking into a Catholic Church because he can just feel God.

As for the boring part, one of my friends asked me about that because I went to an extremely charismatic church before becoming Catholic. So the assumption everyone has is that I must be bored with toned-down music and the like. But how can I be bored in the presence of my Lord and Saviour?!

[Aloysius]

to someone in our culture, anything which was actually deep and rich in meaning will be boring. if the initial reaction of one who has been surrounded with the marvels of western media is NOT "this is somewhat boring", then it does not have deep cosmological significance. an initial reaction of boredom is the response to anything ancient, true, or of deep cosmological significance. surrounding things that are so rich in meaning with entertainment to alleviate the boredom will inevitably destroy the deepness of the meaning.

in any event, are you telling me this garbage is actually an attempt to make mass not boring? a couple of kids, a clown, and a priest putting on some [mod]Edited for language. --Era Might[/mod] play repeating the same old didactic gunk you've heard over and over since CCD? it's sickening

anyway, it is essential that the mass continue to seem boring to anyone who is used to and expecting constant instant gratification and entertainment. otherwise it will lose its soul.

[mortify]

[quote name='SRMiller' post='1165681' date='Jan 15 2007, 05:23 AM']
As for the boring part, one of my friends asked me about that because I went to an extremely charismatic church before becoming Catholic. So the assumption everyone has is that I must be bored with toned-down music and the like. But how can I be bored in the presence of my Lord and Saviour?!
[/quote]

People are confusing spirituality with emotion. It's all about [i]feeling good[/i] and getting that emotional high. The problem is, what happens when the times run dry and hard? If one's faith is emotional you are bound for difficulty. The incredible thing is there is a vast ocean of spirituality in difficulty and suffering... and not to mention those solemn and quiet moments, when you can hear the Whispers of God in your soul.

The statistics prove it, believers want depth, things that become a part of them and last for ever, not transient emotional highs.

[SRMiller]

[quote name='mortify' post='1166286' date='Jan 16 2007, 01:39 AM']
People are confusing spirituality with emotion. It's all about [i]feeling good[/i] and getting that emotional high. The problem is, what happens when the times run dry and hard? If one's faith is emotional you are bound for difficulty. The incredible thing is there is a vast ocean of spirituality in difficulty and suffering... and not to mention those solemn and quiet moments, when you can hear the Whispers of God in your soul.

The statistics prove it, believers want depth, things that become a part of them and last for ever, not transient emotional highs.
[/quote]

Exactly. People don't realize that emotions aren't the be all end all of your faith. I think it causes problems with peoples' faith, when they think they aren't full of faith because they don't "feel God" at that moment. The same could be said of love and marriage. Some think that love is merely an emotion, but what happens when you're having a bad day and don't feel like loving your spouse that day? That's when you choose to love, a love deeper than emotion. That's what it's like at church sometimes. We choose to worship and love, regarldess of any spiritual or emotional high.

[mortify]

This seems more relevant here.

http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Ho...n98/agenda.html

[Birgitta Noel]

[quote name='mortify' post='1224442' date='Mar 31 2007, 07:45 PM']This seems more relevant here.

<a href="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Homiletic/Jan98/agenda.html" target="_blank">http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Ho...n98/agenda.html</a>[/quote]


Bad link

[Phoenix Reborn]

404ed!

[mortify]

Dang! It was working before

For some reason the posted link doesn't work, so if you guys want to see it you're going to have to copy and paste it into a URL box. I'll have to take out the beginning so it doesn't appear as a clickable link:

add the "http://www." catholic.net/CatholicChurch/Periodicals/Homiletic/Jan98/agenda.html


Or just google "Calling the Church to suicide: The liberal agenda"

Whichever is easier

Edited April 1, 2007 by mortify

[mortify]

[quote name='mortify' post='1224442' date='Mar 31 2007, 06:45 PM']This seems more relevant here.

<a href="http://www.catholic.net/[u]Catholic Church[/u]/Periodicals/Homiletic/Jan98/agenda.html" target="_blank">http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Ho...n98/agenda.html</a>[/quote]


Actually, I do know why it doesn't work... note the space between "Catholic" and "Church." How that got there I have no clue, I simply dragged the link into my post and I even previewed it to make sure it worked (and it did!) Interesting, eh?

Edited April 1, 2007 by mortify