Further Clarification On Ecumenism.

[Hirsap]

"What we cannot do (and what they cannot do with us) is worship God in a sacramental sense."

1) This is what I was advised in a previous thread I started on the topic, with regard to relating with non-Catholic Churches. Now with this sacramental sense, does this also forbid taking part in liturgical celebrations?, i.e: worship services of any kind (i.e.: on an ordinary weekday or a Sunday)? Or does this merely make room for ''specially arranged'' worship, specifically meant to be ecumenical?

2) A century ago, I am presuming the Catholic Church did not allow any form of public worship whatsoever with heretics and schismatics. Obviously, since this has been somewhat reformed, this would have to have been a disciplinary rule set up by the Church for prudential reasons, not a divine law which is irrevokable? Speaking on this, to what extent has the Church the power to "bind and loose" when it comes to ecumenical endevours (i.e.: communion in a Lutheran Church by a Catholic is something which will always be wrong, and is no mere disciplinary rule, correct?).

[Lil Red]

moved for discussion/answer

[N/A Gone]

I disclaim this message with the understanding that I am not a militant and I fully submit (perhaps with or without argument) to someone who can express the knowledge of our mother, the church in a proper way.

I will attempt to address your issue in the same way you present it. I would like the first Quote in context, but I will interpret it just for itself for now.

Now, in the context of protestant/catholic relations it must be understood that sacraments are very different. On the majority (sense you can never speak of protestants as a general) They do not have 5 of our sacraments, and they have literally gutted the remaining two. I come from an evangelical baptist background and I can affirm that. In this, and in the kantian scope in which they see theology; they do not believe in a sacramental system as we do. So they cannot worship in a sacramental sense with us, because they do not worship in a sacramental sense at all. It is a disrespect to them to assume or have them worship in a sacramental sense.

Ok, now to your actual questions.

1.)You first ask about attending liturgial services. Now, with respect to the anglican and certain lutheran groups; protestants do not have a liturgy. They do not view their services as a liturgy. Often times they make fun of liturgy. The average protestant has "music-lecture" split in a half/half way. Now, when there are things that do conflict with our faith. Such as protestant communion. We must not participate. I attend a protestant school and if they serve communion I simply sit and pray.

Now, you are basically asking if it is ok to attend their church. I would need to ask why. In ecumenism we respect, we never defend, never attack, always clarify. That does not mean we endorse, that does not mean we compromise. In that, you should never skip mass in order to attend a protestant church. I guess it come down to the reason why you would desire to attend. Know what I mean?

2.) In my understanding what changed in vatican II in regards to this issue was the further education of the difference in material and formal heretics. Protestantism is a heresy, but protestants are only a material heretic. They are born in that enviroment. They did not taste the divine gift and reject it. (best example of this is the ship/raft story by Steven Ray) So, what is clarified as far as what would be allowdd and what wouldnt is case-by-case. Dont hurt your own faith. There is a fine line when being on the front line.

When asking what "power" the church has it depends what you mean by power. The church is the shepherd taking care of His sheep. In that, we are led to the fullness of truth. The church will recommend things, and its job is to take care of you. Are you laity or theologian or vocational? There are many differences here. Ask specifics and I can see if I can help.

God bless

[Hirsap]

Thanks for the response.

My intent in asking these questions was to clarify on the limits of ecumenism, just how far in theory such endevours can go, to explain this, to people who (in their eyes) tend to see a 'difference' between the Church's position on it now, and the Church's position say 60 yrs ago. It was not a matter of wondering if I can go to and wanting to go to a Protestant Church.

[N/A Gone]

gotcha,

In my understanding the "understanding" of what protestants are/were is what has changed. We do not affirm their beliefs anymore than we did before, and we do not affirm the original rebellion; yet we understand that these are children of the rebellion, and we will not bring them back to the ship if we try to bomb them out of the water

[Resurrexi]

[quote]1) This is what I was advised in a previous thread I started on the topic, with regard to relating with non-Catholic Churches. Now with this sacramental sense, does this also forbid taking part in liturgical celebrations?, i.e: worship services of any kind (i.e.: on an ordinary weekday or a Sunday)? Or does this merely make room for ''specially arranged'' worship, specifically meant to be ecumenical? [/quote]We can never attend the worship service of another religion... EVER. Nor may we pray witha person of another religion using their prayers... they must use our pre-written prayers if they pray with us.

[quote]2) A century ago, I am presuming the Catholic Church did not allow any form of public worship whatsoever with heretics and schismatics. Obviously, since this has been somewhat reformed, this would have to have been a disciplinary rule set up by the Church for prudential reasons, not a divine law which is irrevokable? Speaking on this, to what extent has the Church the power to "bind and loose" when it comes to ecumenical endevours (i.e.: communion in a Lutheran Church by a Catholic is something which will always be wrong, and is no mere disciplinary rule, correct?).[/quote]

Nothing about true oecumenism has been changed and nothing has been reformed. The Second Oecumenical Council of the Vatican changed nothing on relations with other religions.

Edited February 17, 2007 by StThomasMore

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197267' date='Feb 16 2007, 09:19 PM']We can never attend the worship service of another religion... EVER. Nor may we pray witha person of another religion using their prayers... they must use our pre-written prayers if they pray with us.
Nothing has been changed and nothing has been reformed. The Second Oecumenical Council of the Vatican changed nothing on relations with other religions.[/quote]
wrong and wrong again.
Until you read the documents of Vatican II and all the church documents since then kindly stay refrain from answering questions.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1197272' date='Feb 16 2007, 07:23 PM']wrong and wrong again.
Until you read the documents of Vatican II and all the church documents since then kindly stay refrain from answering questions.[/quote]

Revprodji hasn't read all of said documents...

[cmotherofpirl]

THis is NOT a debate.

[Nathan]

Surely it is OK to attend a Protestant service -- faithful Catholics do all the time, for weddings and funerals and such -- but the line is drawn on receiving the Sacraments. For instance, it would be perfectly fine to attend an Anglican or Lutheran or Presbyterian service as an observer or guest, but a Catholic may not receive communion there. Doing so would be an insult to the authentic Eucharist.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197276' date='Feb 16 2007, 08:28 PM']Revprodji hasn't read all of said documents...[/quote]


as an evangelical convert trained in theology do you really wanna bet that I have not read almost everything I could get my hand on before I converted and that I have continued that now in regards to this issue? give me a list of the documents you belief that I have not read.

oh, and you are very wrong with your views on protestants.