God Conquers Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Even the Holy Father said no and Bush did it anyway. What's worse? Actually the Holy Father never said this. He said to "exhaust all other avenues." This does not mean the same thing as "do not go to war" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Another thing to note... The Pope is not a pacifist. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Just another thing I think we forget sometimes. The Catholic Church and the Republican Party are not synonymous. GWB and God are not the same being. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speech Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 (edited) Profoundly true: Edited January 22, 2004 by Speech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrndveritatis Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Just a few thousand unborn children when he lied about the "right" to partial-birth abortion and twice vetoed a ban. Just those persons who were working in aspirin factories in Africa. Just hundreds of Bosnian civilians. Don't forget: Clinton also bombed Baghdad. Also, when did Bush lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 It just occurred to me what the real issue is: CLINTON(democrats) vs BUSH Americans die vs foreign terrorists die Pick what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 It just occurred to me what the real issue is: CLINTON(democrats) vs BUSH Americans die vs foreign terrorists die Pick what you want. now now. Clinton doesn't equal all democrats. Personally, I hold to the economic principles of the Democratic party ... but anytime anyone on this board disagrees with the Republican party that automatically makes them pro-abortion, etc. Someone else already said it, but being Catholic doesn't equal being Republican. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speech Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 God Conquers writes: Americans die vs foreign terrorists die First: Aren't you from Canada? Second: Why must we choose between Americans and foreign terrorists? Doesn't every human life have the same dignity -- from Hitler to Mother Teresa? Or has Catholic teaching changed? Third: Americans have died under the policies of the Bush Administration. Over 500 American citizens have died because of Bush's orders to fight a war that your own pope has questioned the justice of. Americans are dying every day because of Bush's continued refusal to speak out about the injustice of capital punishment. Americans are dying because they can't afford health insurance. Soon, Americans will be dying because Bush has pulled the rug out from under Medicare. Americans are dying because Bush continues to support the kind of bigotry that fuels hate crimes against blacks, homosexuals, and other minority groups. To claim that Democrats kill Americans and that Republicans only kill "foreign terrorists" is absurd. Fourth: I don't think abortion is murder, because I don't believe ensoulment occurs at conception, because I don't believe what the Catholic Church teaches. So how do you like them apples? (I don't actually know when ensoulment occurs, but this does bring up a good question -- have you any proof outside of your own faith that abortion is murder?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 (I don't actually know when ensoulment occurs, but this does bring up a good question -- have you any proof outside of your own faith that abortion is murder?) nobody has to be a scientist to know that their killing and murdering an innocent child. you answered your question yourself nathan here, let me quote... Doesn't every human life have the same dignity -- from Hitler to Mother Teresa? you are right, every person, born and unborn, deserve the right and dignity to LIFE. you can hear a heartbeat, and see them in the womb thru an ultrasound, a mother can feel the baby kick inside her, move around.....we know LIFE. and though many may choose to see it otherwise, its murder :sadder: click below for pictures... here here here here here tomorrow thousands of others will be marching, for LIFE. for the 43,337,706 babies that have been murdered since abortion was legalized in 1973. babies who should now be your age nathan and my age and older, livign life to its fullest, having jobs, families, school and friends.........but they dont', they were murdered before they were born, defenseless and killed when they are innocent. "Any country that accepts abortion, is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what it wants." "What is taking place in America," Mother Teresa said, "is a war against the child. And if we accept that the mother can kill her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another." God bless you nathan, you are in my prayers!!!!!! +JMJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Bush stinks. He's a liberal republican. About the only think I like about him is that he opposes baby-murder and he is appointing good judges. Pretty much everything else is suspect . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Fourth: I don't think abortion is murder, because I don't believe ensoulment occurs at conception, because I don't believe what the Catholic Church teaches. So how do you like them apples? (I don't actually know when ensoulment occurs, but this does bring up a good question -- have you any proof outside of your own faith that abortion is murder?) Yes, I am from Canada, so I don't have a vote, but I enjoy American politics. I agree that Catholics should not equal Republicans. Public health and welfare were invented by the Cathoilic Church. (my support of these policies is also a function of being Canadian) Yes, every life is precious. But everyone should have a chance at life. Abortion is murder- With no religious argument: If you don't KNOW when ensoulment takes place, than you are MORALLY OBLIGATED to back-off. You hold the burden of proof. You must prove that the being in question DOES NOT have a soul. Since this is impossible, you must not allow abortion, for you run the risk, at any stage, of killing an ensouled being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speech Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Flowery writes: you are right, every person, born and unborn, deserve the right and dignity to LIFE. you can hear a heartbeat, and see them in the womb thru an ultrasound, a mother can feel the baby kick inside her, move around.....we know LIFE. Say my cat is pregnant. If you did an ultrasound, could you hear the heartbeat of the kittens? Could you see them in the womb through an ultrasound? Could the cat feel the kittens kicking inside her, moving around? And yet, there are times when a cat's pregnancy must be terminated for a variety of reasons. It's done all the time. By your logic, because I can observe the life in growing inside a female cat, it is morally unsound to terminate the pregnancies of any living creatures. Correct? If not, please explain to me why it's different. Please explain to me, outside the context of your faith, why abortions are immoral. God Conquers writes: Abortion is murder- With no religious argument: If you don't KNOW when ensoulment takes place, than you are MORALLY OBLIGATED to back-off. You hold the burden of proof. You must prove that the being in question DOES NOT have a soul. Since this is impossible, you must not allow abortion, for you run the risk, at any stage, of killing an ensouled being. Au contraire, the burden of proof is on you. The burden of proof is on the Catholic Church to prove when ensoulment does take place, or that ensoulment actually occurs at all. I can't observe the soul, can I? How do I even know that any human being has a soul? How do I know that we're not just a more advanced form of animal life? And how do I know animals aren't ensouled? How can I be sure? By your logic, eating a steak would "run the risk of killing an ensouled being." Could plants have souls? If so, couldn't eating anything "run the risk of killing an ensouled being"? Perhaps I should starve myself, lest I run the risk of killing an ensouled being? These arguments don't work on non-Catholics, that's why abortion is so widespread. If you want to end abortion, y'all are going to have to come up with something better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrndveritatis Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 OBVIOUSLY they meant the human soul and human life. Anyways, Aquinas says plants and animals have vegetative and animal souls. The difference is they aren't immortal and they aren't in the image and likeness of God. Speech, if you want us to prove ensoulment before you oppose abortion, does that mean that you do not oppose murder, since you obviously don't believe in the soul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speech Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 jrndveritatis writes: OBVIOUSLY they meant the human soul and human life. I know what they meant, but I'm now asking for you to explain why there's a difference between terminating a cat's pregnancy and terminating a human's pregnancy, without using ensoulment or any religious tenet, since I'm not Catholic and I don't know that I believe in ensoulment. Anyways, Aquinas says plants and animals have vegetative and animal souls. The difference is they aren't immortal and they aren't in the image and likeness of God. Says Aquinas. I don't believe him. There's the end of that argument. Speech, if you want us to prove ensoulment before you oppose abortion, does that mean that you do not oppose murder, since you obviously don't believe in the soul? I do oppose murder, because I believe that it's harmful to the social fabric -- whereas abortion is not always harmful to the social fabric, and sometimes may even be helpful. Incidentally, I do believe in ensoulment, but I'm asking you to make a case for someone who doesn't. As for my beliefs regarding ensoulment: unlike the Catholic Church, I believe that ensoulment occurs at birth rather than conception. I have no proof of it, but neither do you, which makes your theory about ensoulment no more valid than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thicke Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Speech - May the peace of Christ be with you! Au contraire, the burden of proof is on you. The burden of proof is on the Catholic Church to prove when ensoulment does take place, or that ensoulment actually occurs at all. I can't observe the soul, can I? How do I even know that any human being has a soul? How do I know that we're not just a more advanced form of animal life? Are you saying the argument is if an unborn child has a soul, or it if the unborn child is alive. It seems to me that most Pro-Choicers believe that the unborn are not alive yet. That is why they justify abortion. Have I been wrong all this time? Now granted, we Catholics believe that having a soul and being alive are mutually inclusive. But, this is the first time I have heard a pro-choicer use the term "soul" in their arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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