The Self Contradicting 'catholic Church'

[Anomaly]

What a conundrum for those who worship the temporal Church. One either needs to suspend all common sense, or admit that Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Popes, and other Church Bureacrats are Religion Politicians.
[quote]Expressing the hope that the capital punishment would not be carried out, [b]the cardinal said that a government cannot compensate “one crime with another crime.” [/b]

According to Iraqi state television, the former Iraqi president was executed before 6 a.m. Saturday, Dec. 30, Baghdad.

On Dec. 30, the Vatican restated its opposition to the death penalty.

"The execution of a capital sentence is always tragic news, a cause of sadness, even when the person is guilty of terrible crimes,” said Holy See Press Office Director Father Federico Lombardi in a midday declaration hours after the death of the former Iraqi leader.

[b]"The position of the Catholic Church against the death penalty has often been reiterated,” he said. "The killing of the guilty is not the way to rebuild justice and reconcile society, rather there is a risk of nourishing the spirit of revenge and inciting fresh violence.” [/b]
"At this dark time in the life of the Iraqi people, we cannot but hope that all those in charge truly make every effort to ensure that, in such a dramatic situation, hopes for reconciliation and peace are finally opened," the press office director said.

While acknowledging that there was “no doubt” that Saddam was responsible for crimes against humanity, [b]Cardinal Martino said that did not change the church’s opposition to capital punishment. [/b]
Saddam and six of his former top government officials were found guilty on Nov. 5 of ordering the killing of 148 Shias in the town of Dujail in 1982 in retaliation for an attempt on his life. "[/quote][url="http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=22526"]http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=22526[/url]
But yet:
[quote]2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.[/quote]

Dang. I guess you can have it both ways. Pelosi and Kerry are better Catholics than I, so what do I know?

Isn't this a matter of Faith and Morals? Infallibility? Face it. It's a bunch of humans, no better than you or I, providing different interpretations and political ideology. Being a member of the Clergy doesn't make you any more Christian than paying your dues at the local Catholic Church makes you a better Christian. Though Jesus is present in the Church, as He is present in those who gather in His name, that doesn't mean that human fraility and foibles are not present as well. Religion is not God.

[cmotherofpirl]

Welcome back.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1159821' date='Jan 9 2007, 10:46 AM']
What a conundrum for those who worship the temporal Church. One either needs to suspend all common sense, or admit that Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Popes, and other Church Bureacrats are Religion Politicians.
[url="http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=22526"]http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=22526[/url]
But yet:
Dang. I guess you can have it both ways. Pelosi and Kerry are better Catholics than I, so what do I know?

Isn't this a matter of Faith and Morals? Infallibility? Face it. It's a bunch of humans, no better than you or I, providing different interpretations and political ideology. Being a member of the Clergy doesn't make you any more Christian than paying your dues at the local Catholic Church makes you a better Christian. Though Jesus is present in the Church, as He is present in those who gather in His name, that doesn't mean that human fraility and foibles are not present as well. Religion is not God.
[/quote]

Sorry Anomaly your thread seems to have been hijacked. Though there are plently of death penalties threads around here right now. If you really do care to find out the truth of what the Church teaches I suggest you read one of those.

Edt: I thought I'd sum it up for ya real quick...

The Church's teaching is consistant and it lies in the CCC passage you quoted
[quote]2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.[/quote]

Especially note that last line "if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor". In most cases if not all in todays world, the Church has found that human lives can be defended against an aggressor by other means, ie. jail. Therefore since there are other possible ways of defending human lives, the death penalty is not required.

Edited January 9, 2007 by rkwright

[Anomaly]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1159914' date='Jan 9 2007, 01:32 PM']
Sorry Anomaly your thread seems to have been hijacked. Though there are plently of death penalties threads around here right now. If you really do care to find out the truth of what the Church teaches I suggest you read one of those.

Edt: I thought I'd sum it up for ya real quick...

The Church's teaching is consistant and it lies in the CCC passage you quoted
Especially note that last line "if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor". In most cases if not all in todays world, the Church has found that human lives can be defended against an aggressor by other means, ie. jail. Therefore since there are other possible ways of defending human lives, the death penalty is not required.
[/quote]
That's BS. There have always been jails and a means of incarceration, they weren't invented 50 years ago. What place did you think Samson was kept? People weren't kept imprisoned for decades until this last Century?
The New Catholic Church is directly going against a long policy of allowing the State to execute because it is more politically expedient, not because morality has changed. What the Cardinal is stating directly and completely contradicts what the Catechism says. The Principle's of the Church do enjoy a greater consistency than it's actual Teachings. The Teachings have changed merely by politically expedient 'spin'. The current Vatican Bureacracy are clearly saying that Sadaam's death is more of a Crime than the death of the Judges, Lawyers, and Iraqi civil personnell who have been murdered becaurse of their efforts to bring justice to Sadaam.
Church Bureaucrats are motiviated by their own political opinions and desires. That's why things change. Once you achieve political critical mass, you make up new rules and new interpretations based on the same Principles. State Authority is derived from God's Authority, providing order to Humanity. Individual dignity is important as well. The politically expedient balance between the two changes with the winds of time. Before, State Authority was respected as the greater good to protect Individual Dignity. Now, Individual Dignity supercedes the State's Authority to mete punishment and maintain order. As clear a change as switching from Latin to Vernacular.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1159933' date='Jan 9 2007, 01:01 PM']
That's BS. There have always been jails and a means of incarceration, they weren't invented 50 years ago. What place did you think Samson was kept? People weren't kept imprisoned for decades until this last Century?
The New Catholic Church is directly going against a long policy of allowing the State to execute because it is more politically expedient, not because morality has changed. What the Cardinal is stating directly and completely contradicts what the Catechism says. The Principle's of the Church do enjoy a greater consistency than it's actual Teachings. The Teachings have changed merely by politically expedient 'spin'. The current Vatican Bureacracy are clearly saying that Sadaam's death is more of a Crime than the death of the Judges, Lawyers, and Iraqi civil personnell who have been murdered becaurse of their efforts to bring justice to Sadaam.
Church Bureaucrats are motiviated by their own political opinions and desires. That's why things change. Once you achieve political critical mass, you make up new rules and new interpretations based on the same Principles. State Authority is derived from God's Authority, providing order to Humanity. Individual dignity is important as well. The politically expedient balance between the two changes with the winds of time. Before, State Authority was respected as the greater good to protect Individual Dignity. Now, Individual Dignity supercedes the State's Authority to mete punishment and maintain order. As clear a change as switching from Latin to Vernacular.
[/quote]


Do you have any proof to back any of this up?? Theres a lot of people who like to claim stuff on here without proving it. Conspiracy theories don't fly around here.

Remember the CCC quote talks about "effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor." Just because jails have always been around, does not mean that they have been effective at defending life.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1159933' date='Jan 9 2007, 01:01 PM']
That's BS. There have always been jails and a means of incarceration, they weren't invented 50 years ago. What place did you think Samson was kept? People weren't kept imprisoned for decades until this last Century?
The New Catholic Church is directly going against a long policy of allowing the State to execute because it is more politically expedient, not because morality has changed. What the Cardinal is stating directly and completely contradicts what the Catechism says. The Principle's of the Church do enjoy a greater consistency than it's actual Teachings. The Teachings have changed merely by politically expedient 'spin'. The current Vatican Bureacracy are clearly saying that Sadaam's death is more of a Crime than the death of the Judges, Lawyers, and Iraqi civil personnell who have been murdered becaurse of their efforts to bring justice to Sadaam.
Church Bureaucrats are motiviated by their own political opinions and desires. That's why things change. Once you achieve political critical mass, you make up new rules and new interpretations based on the same Principles. State Authority is derived from God's Authority, providing order to Humanity. Individual dignity is important as well. The politically expedient balance between the two changes with the winds of time. Before, State Authority was respected as the greater good to protect Individual Dignity. Now, Individual Dignity supercedes the State's Authority to mete punishment and maintain order. As clear a change as switching from Latin to Vernacular.
[/quote]


That is unqualified bs.

The caveat is protecting the innocent from future harm. It has nothing to do with political opinions or desires. And while there has been jails for thousands of years, there has only been advances in the way criminals have been incarcerated in the past 30. Today the security of incarcerated felons is exponentially greater than it was 50 years ago

BTW you should know that. You've stated that you've built a jail or two.


You think the Church bows to political pressure? Then why would they be so slow to act on the scandal a few years back? Why would the the US bishops put together a strong policy on how to deal with pedophile priests only to have the Holy Father send it back with the message "try again".

[Lil Red]

Urib2007 - stick with the original point of the post - the Catholic Church's stance on the death penalty. if you want to bring up your points - do so in separate threads please.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1159821' date='Jan 9 2007, 11:46 AM']
But yet:
[quote]
2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.[/quote]
[/quote]

Read the part after the most important word in that sentence, "if" and tell me if keeping Saddam in prison for life wouldn't satisfy that clause.

It's a very rare situation that the Church would approve of the death penalty. The only reasonable one I can think of might be a third world country too poor to afford effective prisons, so the death penalty is the only method that would protect its citizens from the most dangerous criminals. And even that situation, the initial assumption about having full determination of the prisoner's guilt cannot be ignored.

[Aloysius]

the Vatican's position on temporal affairs does not enjoy any level of divine origin or protection because God never promised His Church that she would be an expert on human and earthly affairs, only that She would have protection against binding Her faithful in principals contrary to Divine Truth.

the only thing we are to have divine faith in regarding the Church are principals of faith and morals; how they apply depends on how we see the actual conditions of the temporal order. the Church has no divine assistance in knowing whether the jails of history were as competent as the jails of today, or whether the country of Iraq has the competency to use non-lethal means in a way which would be sufficient for the greater good, just as she never had any expertise on how to make a nuclear or chemical weapon or whether Saddam Hussein did or did not have any of them or whether he was a threat.

the Church teaches moral principals protected from error. it's not some obvious miraculous prophetic sight that sees all and knows all about the world, God does not will human events to unfold that way. they've only got spiritual expertise in matters of Divinely Revealed Truths, as matters of principal. they certainly have the power, means, authority, and responsibility to excercise their opinions over all temporal things in the same way any world leader has, but their divine assistance comes only in what matters of principal the faithful are bound to believe.

ergo, if someone does worship the temporal church in the way you describe (ie believing with divine faith and telling all Catholics to bind their whole faith to these statements of Vatican policy) then they commit idolatry to the temporal institution. though a certain level of obedience and assent can be asked of the faithful to the extent that they not appear to contradict the Church's actual principal position in their appearance of contradicting her fallible temporal position, all Catholics have full freedom to believe Saddam Hussein, and indeed many guilty criminals in modern society, should be executed.

the principal position binding on Catholics is this: that the death penalty is justly due to anyone guilty of a grave crime; and that if non-lethal means are available and sufficient to defend society then it would be a greater good to use them and give mercy to the guilty party (of course, not contradicting the fact that it would always be a good to some extent to execute that guilty party)

[Anomaly]

Alyisious,
So the Church isn't an expert on Temporal Affairs, yet it makes a moral judgement and claims to be against the Death Penalty with one side of it's mouth, yet claim it is just with the other.
Case in point. Get 10 Catholic posters here to agree on the execution of Sadaam.

Last I looked, Iraq does not have any 'SuperMax Prisons', hot stuff.

So, is Sadaam's execution a catholic crime?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1160248' date='Jan 9 2007, 08:27 PM']
Alyisious,

Last I looked, Iraq does not have any 'SuperMax Prisons', hot stuff.

So, is Sadaam's execution a catholic crime?
[/quote]

When's the last you looked?

I've got a pretty good idea that you haven't the first clue as to what the standards are for mideast jails.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Get 10 Catholic posters here to agree on the execution of Sadaam.[/quote]

That won't be possible. Why?

Because there is a lot of scope for thought within the Church's laws. As people who are strongly pro-life, we are obliged to assess each case on its merits and take whichever course of action is most strongly in keeping with a pro-life ethos. Catholics will naturally disagree on how best to do that. You're expecting the Church to have the kind of mindset that is prevalent in some Protestant denominations: every last thing must be defined by the man in the pulpit. Believe it or not, Phatmassers are entitled to disagree with the Holy See on occasion - not every word that comes out of the Vatican is binding and infallible. [i]Beliefs[/i] are clearly stated by the Catholic Church, certainly. But the lay faithful have to work out the best ways to apply those beliefs in their own lives. This is why there is room for debate within the Church - especially where topics as delicate as the death penalty are concerned. It is very difficult to say that the death penalty is [i]always[/i] acceptable or that it is [i]always[/i] wrong, as circumstance has a lot to do with it.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1160568' date='Jan 10 2007, 08:52 AM']
That won't be possible. Why?

Because there is a lot of scope for thought within the Church's laws. As people who are strongly pro-life, we are obliged to assess each case on its merits and take whichever course of action is most strongly in keeping with a pro-life ethos. Catholics will naturally disagree on how best to do that. You're expecting the Church to have the kind of mindset that is prevalent in some Protestant denominations: every last thing must be defined by the man in the pulpit. Believe it or not, Phatmassers are entitled to disagree with the Holy See on occasion - not every word that comes out of the Vatican is binding and infallible. [i]Beliefs[/i] are clearly stated by the Catholic Church, certainly. But the lay faithful have to work out the best ways to apply those beliefs in their own lives. This is why there is room for debate within the Church - especially where topics as delicate as the death penalty are concerned. It is very difficult to say that the death penalty is [i]always[/i] acceptable or that it is [i]always[/i] wrong, as circumstance has a lot to do with it.
[/quote]Wait a few hours and you will be disagreed with. You couldn't even get 10 Bishops to agree. But of course, that doesn't address a spokesman for the Vatican claiming that Sadaam's execution is a CRIME as opposed to not being the better choice but within the parameters of the athority of the State. Fanatic 'catholics' cannot admit that the Church Bureacracy is a cacophony of differing human opinions whose policies and decrees are controlled by internal politics among humans vying for power/prestige/control.
At one time, a Divorce was a rare thing, now it's readily accepted.
At one time, the Death Penalty was accepted as justice meted by the State, now it's a Crime.
At one time, the Papacy had it's own armies, now 'Just War Theory' isn't a theory, it's a policy of pacsifism.
At one time it was acceptable for Popes and Clergy to have mistresses and illegitimate kids, now that's taboo but homosexuality is tolerated.
The catholic church is manipulated by men with religion lawyers. One only has to read a bit of un-biased catholic church history to get a picture of the internal/behind the scenes politics that choose the various decrees and statements from different council.
It's not good when you're taught your relationship with the Religion is summit of your relationship with God. That's the root of the Proty rebellion who sacrificed the support/comfort/aid/nurture of an institutional Church for a more personal relationship with God. But it wasn't much of a sacrifice when the institutional Church fails at it's mission to provide the support/comfort/aid/nurture to a relationship with God when humans co-opted it's power by making the relationship with the Church it's primary goal. That's the source of denominational scisms. The politics of human power and control using religion, not theological dissent. Human politics manipulate theology to control religion for human goals. As long as Catholics believe the Church is infallible in aspects it is not, humans will take advantage of their naivete'.
That's the reason homo/pedophile clergy problem became a scandal. The harm to the Church was more important than the harm to the victims. Better to tell the people the Church makes NO mistakes and protecting the power and athority of it's clergy, than admitting mistakes and having to narrow the parameters of when it's 'infallible'. Better to say the Church is infallible in All Matters of Faith and Morals instead of possibly limiting it to only defining Dogma as a unified institution. The Catholic Church and God may be inseperable, the the Catholic Church is not God alone.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1160590' date='Jan 10 2007, 09:27 AM']
Wait a few hours and you will be disagreed with. You couldn't even get 10 Bishops to agree. But of course, that doesn't address a spokesman for the Vatican claiming that Sadaam's execution is a CRIME as opposed to not being the better choice but within the parameters of the athority of the State. Fanatic 'catholics' cannot admit that the Church Bureacracy is a cacophony of differing human opinions whose policies and decrees are controlled by internal politics among humans vying for power/prestige/control.
At one time, a Divorce was a rare thing, now it's readily accepted.
At one time, the Death Penalty was accepted as justice meted by the State, now it's a Crime.
At one time, the Papacy had it's own armies, now 'Just War Theory' isn't a theory, it's a policy of pacsifism.
At one time it was acceptable for Popes and Clergy to have mistresses and illegitimate kids, now that's taboo but homosexuality is tolerated.
The catholic church is manipulated by men with religion lawyers. One only has to read a bit of un-biased catholic church history to get a picture of the internal/behind the scenes politics that choose the various decrees and statements from different council.
It's not good when you're taught your relationship with the Religion is summit of your relationship with God. That's the root of the Proty rebellion who sacrificed the support/comfort/aid/nurture of an institutional Church for a more personal relationship with God. But it wasn't much of a sacrifice when the institutional Church fails at it's mission to provide the support/comfort/aid/nurture to a relationship with God when humans co-opted it's power by making the relationship with the Church it's primary goal. That's the source of denominational scisms. The politics of human power and control using religion, not theological dissent. Human politics manipulate theology to control religion for human goals. As long as Catholics believe the Church is infallible in aspects it is not, humans will take advantage of their naivete'.
That's the reason homo/pedophile clergy problem became a scandal. The harm to the Church was more important than the harm to the victims. Better to tell the people the Church makes NO mistakes and protecting the power and athority of it's clergy, than admitting mistakes and having to narrow the parameters of when it's 'infallible'. Better to say the Church is infallible in All Matters of Faith and Morals instead of possibly limiting it to only defining Dogma as a unified institution. The Catholic Church and God may be inseperable, the the Catholic Church is not God alone.
[/quote]


Actually the homo/pedophile thing was started because liberals wanted diversity in the church so they got control of the seminaries and only ordained homosxual men while rejecting 2 generations of holy straight men. The church is the body of Christ. If we sever our relationship with the church, we sever it with God.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1160591' date='Jan 10 2007, 10:37 AM']
Actually the homo/pedophile thing was started because liberals wanted diversity in the church so they got control of the seminaries and only ordained homosxual men while rejecting 2 generations of holy straight men. The church is the body of Christ. If we sever our relationship with the church, we sever it with God.
[/quote]
That, Akalyte, is sad and makes my point.
The Church rejected 2 generations of holy straight men for homosxuals, but to sever a relationship with the Church of ordained homosxual men, we sever it with God? And we can't 'partially sever' our relationship with the Church because the Church says you have to accept the whole kit and kaboodle because It is the Body of Christ. Quite a conundrum, don't you think?
Hypothetically, if I had a gay Catholic son, should I tell him it's okay, become a priest, but make sure your boyfriends are over 18? As repulsive/extreme/unreal as that sounds, it seems to be the current message of the majority in the Church. Those that disagree with that seem to have little power within the Church. One little statement that priests shouldn't be actively homosexual brought loud cries of objection from within, didn't it?