Catholics Who Critisize Catholics

[Laudate_Dominum]

Heretic = One who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

That's from a dictionary. So if you want to get technical we can rightfully call anyone, lay or clergy, a heretic so long as they publicly dissent from official Church teachings. In fact we should call them heretics! It's charitable because they need to hear it. Dissenter is not a strong enough word. In the past people who are now often called dissenters were simply called heretics. Dissent means you differ in opinion. To call a heretic a dissenter is to imply that the Church's dogmatic teachings are not binding but are merely an opinion that can change.

Edited January 22, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[M.SIGGA]

whatever, it's your free will.

[Laudate_Dominum]

On the flip side, if I ever say anything that doesn't jive with dogma, you can call me a heretic! In fact, please do! If I ever spout off heresy I would hope that someone would correct my error! It's a work of mercy. If you just can't make yourself use the word heretic you could just say "is that your breath or do I smell bad doctrine?"

[Laudate_Dominum]

For the sake of clarity, and because I don't want people to read into what I was saying allow me to make a brief statement.

While I am not above refering to "heretical clergy" in a kind of abstract, general sense. And while I'm not above privately and prudently informing a clergyman of some heresy he might be publicly promoting if I am aware of it and it is a sufficiently serious matter. I hold that ONE SHOULD NEVER DISRESPECT A PRIEST OF BISHOP. I just want that to be clear. I do not advocate disobedience, dissent, publicly criticizing a Bishop, or being rude, disrespectful or in any way uncharitable toward clergy.

Amen.

P.S. I still support the free use of the words heresy and heretic. I think a revival of these words would be grand. See my post about heretic vs. dissenter above.

[jasJis]

Personally, I think "heretic" is used too freely by the Lay. It assumes an extrordinary level knowledge of the subject, the facts of the matter, the person, etc., and leaves little room for humility, respect, or charity.

I take my cue from what I hear and read of Catholic theologians (lay and clergy), preists, teachers, etc.

Read your own definition of Heretic. 'Publically dissenting on dogma.'

In order to judge someone a heretic you must establish:

1- The person understands the Church Dogma. (In order to do establish that, you should also be absolutely sure you understand the particular Dogma absolutely correctly.)

2- You must understand what the person is stating or attempting to state. This means you must have discussed with them. You can't judge on tertiary evidence, heresay, or second hand quotes. You also must have had any questions clarified and have given the person the opportunity to explain and address your misgivings.

3- The person, with full knowledge of Dogma, with full knowledge of their disagreement with Dogma, still professes the dissent.

Short of meeting the above criteria, they just may be humanly wrong in their understanding of Dogma and/or how they are being understood by others, or you may be wrong in your understanding of Dogma and/or wrong in understanding what the other is attempting to communicate.

If you've got that covered, knock yourself out with the heretic labels. ;)

[Laudate_Dominum]

That's false dude. Those criteria would be for a formal excommunication based on the heretical views. It does not take a theologian to recognize heresy. It's quite easy. The Church has defined many, many "anathemas", they are simple and easy to use. (example. "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, anathema sit." - Trent) So if I hear a guy say "baptism is optional, it's not necessary for salvation." I can say "dude, that's heresy". If he says "that's my view man" and starts trying to verse slang or something, I've got a clear cut heretic on my hands. It's not a dirty word for crying out loud.

And remember the distinction between a material heretic and a formal heretic. The guy in the example above is more like a formal heretic because he was informed that the position was heresy yet persisted in it. Before he was aware he was simply a material heretic which is a heretic nonetheless.

It doesn't take special authority, it's our basic duty as Catholics to recognize heresy and avoid it. Recall my example several posts back about the heretical Theology professor, that's a clear example of when we it's good to recognize heresy. Obviously if you don't know that much about it and aren't certain that a person is uttering heresy or if you may be misunderstanding them, give them the benefit of the doubt, but in the explicit and obvious cases, call a spade a spade for crying out loud.

I'm getting burned out on this thread man.. What is driving me crazy is that everyone keeps saying stuff like this:

leaves little room for humility, respect, or charity.

Recognizing heresy in itself (which is what I'm talking about) is neither prideful, disrespectful, or uncharitable. In fact recognizing a heretic and doing something about it should include humility, respect and charity.

Why do so many people seem to have the idea that the word heresy = uncharitble bigotry. It's just a fact of life people.

And what the heck, who in the Church has never left a strange homily or a debate with a protestant and at least thought to themselves "dang, that was some extreme heresy"??

If I were to say right now, "Jesus isn't God" or "the Pope isn't infallible" wouldn't the word (or at least the concept) of heresy pop into your mind. Maybe bad doctrine, error, or something else meaning heresy. Go to the Mel Gibson thread, people are calling him a heretic right now because he rejects the Pope or something. It's natural, it's normal, it's not bad, if done with humility and charity its amesome and virtuous! Plenty of people have done it, clergy and laity, men and women, saints and vile sinners. Wee!!!!!!!!!

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm sorry, this thread is making me loose it. I think I'd better fold. Peace.