Catholics Who Critisize Catholics

[PedroX]

Socal,

A call to obedience is not judgement. It is a reminder to keep your baptismal promises. Proverbs says "a word to the wise is sufficient".

Laudate,

It is not your place, nor mine, to determine that a consecrated bishop is a "wolf in sheeps clothing." We are called to obedience and to pray for them. Any misconduct on their part endangers their souls. Scripture is clear about the repsonsibility that weighs on the shoulders of our leaders. I agree with you on many points, but unless you are in a position to sit in judgement, do not judge the person.

peace...

[M.SIGGA]

It is not your place, nor mine, to determine that a consecrated bishop is a "wolf in sheeps clothing." We are called to obedience and to pray for them. Any misconduct on their part endangers their souls. Scripture is clear about the repsonsibility that weighs on the shoulders of our leaders. I agree with you on many points, but unless you are in a position to sit in judgement, do not judge the person.

peace...

word. that's a successor of the apostles you are talking about!

[Laudate_Dominum]

It is not your place, nor mine, to determine that a consecrated bishop is a "wolf in sheeps clothing." We are called to obedience and to pray for them. Any misconduct on their part endangers their souls. Scripture is clear about the repsonsibility that weighs on the shoulders of our leaders. I agree with you on many points, but unless you are in a position to sit in judgement, do not judge the person.

That's what I mean about the exaggerated anti-judgemental attitude in our culture. As if the only thing that is objectively wrong is value judgements. It's a symptom of a culture of relativism and subjectivism. Judging people is not wrong. There is a way of judging peope that is wrong and sinful (such as in a way that makes you feel superior to the person or something). But who are you to judge that I'm doing that? (kidding) Chill out a little bit because it's not a mortal sin to say someone is liberal or heretical, in fact it can be pretty important to say, especially of one who is regarded as a leader. I guess you could say his views are heretical or liberal and make it sound less personal, but it means the same thing anyway. People are so sheepish these days, it's so annoying.

Anyway, the fact is Bishops do things that warrant judgement. When Bishops get together and openly promote dissent you can rightfully judge that they are not orthodox. Similarly when they write heretical books, you can assume they are heretics. It's pretty simple in fact. Are you saying that it's not right to form any kind of judgement whatsoever about a Bishop? Even if it's totally obvious? What if my Bishop was very orthodox and a good man, would it be bad for me to form that judgement? Yet, if he was a professed heretic and a grumpy old man I would have to ignore it and somehow force myself to not think about it lest I form a judgement? And of course Bishops are successors to the Apostles and we should respect the office to the utmost, but the man in the office is still a man and should be respected as man according to the merit of his character. And the fact is there are wolves in sheeps clothing in the Church. To say this is not to pass judgement on someone, it's just a fact.

It is not your place, nor mine, to determine that a consecrated bishop is a "wolf in sheeps clothing." We are called to obedience and to pray for them.

I don't recall declaring any Bishops wolves in sheeps clothing. I believe I said that heretical priests (i.e., those who do not believe in the real presence, and I've met some so don't say they don't exist) are in fact wolves in sheeps clothing which is certainly fair given the biblical use of that metaphor. And of course we are called to pray for them but obedience is not blind sheepishness. We are called to holines and to live the Catholic faith with fidelity. If a priest tells you to do something that goes against Church teaching or that is a sin you should be disobedient to him generally speaking. I met some married folks once who said they contracept because their "priest said it's ok". I said, "but you know that the Church condemns that practice." "Oh, but I'm being obedient to my priest." There are priests (and Bishops) who publicly support abortion, the homosexual agenda, the merger of Catholicism with other world religions, etc. It would be wrong to pretend these clergy were just fine. I'm ok, your ok. It's a scandal and an outrage and it is the charitable thing to call them on their sins.

[M.SIGGA]

It's the Pope's job to appoint and check bishops. Calling a bishop a conservative, moderate, or liberal are opinions and are very different than judging a bishop and labeling him to be a heretic. Heretic is a very strong word that implies something horrible and to be used wrongly is very disrespectful. The power to judge comes with authority and other than God only specific people in a society, outlined by scripture, have the right to judge. Discernment is one thing, but passing judgement on a bishop, which is a finite action, is not a right of the laity.

[socalscout]

SoCal (am i right in thinking you're abbreviating Southern California?)

very rarely would anyone here really call any of our bishops a wimp (sometimes we might call them heretics but we're pretty certain they're strong in their beliefs or lack of) if we suggest they are being wimpy it is only our frustration at seeing other catholics trying to distort the truth that we know and hope they at least at one time knew and we wish our bishops would do more to encouraging catholics to be *good catholics*

as for issues with dressing for Mass, this is one thing that to the best of my knowledge there is no allowance for local custom in the sense of local custom allowing for more relaxed dress. We should dress for each Mass to the best of our wardrobe possible buying something to wear if we can afford to do so and our current wardrobe contains no suitable attire. would you wear shorts to a business dinner? Mass is the most serious business in the world and it is the only supper at which Christ comes to you in person. In fact, He is the host of the "dinner". so in regards to your comment about shorts I cannot abide shorts being called acceptable.

as for people leaving early let's remember we are fed through the entire Mass on God's Word, the Word Made Flesh, and blessings/prayers, if you don't understand why this upsets us next time you eat supper with someone especially if they're hosting, in the middle of the meal before you've finished eating put down your utensils and walk out the room "because you have other things to do, or other places to be" without saying goodbye. I guarantee you will offend not only the host but any other guests who are there by displaying such bad manners. Again the Mass is much more serious than this hopefully hypothetical supper.

some things are none of our business people showing disrespect for our beliefs especially when they profess (through the creed) to share those beliefs is the business of all Catholics.

Yes I am in SoCal, San Diego more specifically.

Do you own a suit? Do you wear that suit to every Mass? I bet every male here owns a suit. Using your logic then that suit should be worn to every Mass...PERIOD! There is no deviation because that would be the best piece of clothing in the closet. If you decided to wear pantaloons and a polo shirt instead of the suit then we are talking about a subjective matter of taste. Who then is to say what is appropriate attire? Here in California there is such a thing as "dress shorts" believe it or not.

I have worn suits to meetings, interviews and weddings but I can't remember any of them significantly(other than my own wedding). The most important events, however, in my life I wore jeans and a T-shirt...the birth of my sons. I can give you a play by play of those events.

You may not agree but it does not make you anymore right than me.

As far as leaving Mass early I just listed that as a gripe Catholics have against other Catholics. You are preaching to the choir on that one. I think it is rude to leave before the finish of the hymn.

Take care.

[socalscout]

It's the Pope's job to appoint and check bishops. Calling a bishop a conservative, moderate, or liberal are opinions and are very different than judging a bishop and labeling him to be a heretic. Heretic is a very strong word that implies something horrible and to be used wrongly is very disrespectful. The power to judge comes with authority and other than God only specific people in a society, outlined by scripture, have the right to judge. Discernment is one thing, but passing judgement on a bishop, which is a finite action, is not a right of the laity.

Dude we are simpatico on that one. I notice that we like to throw that word, heretic, around. I never heard anyone use it except for the lay.

[M.SIGGA]

Dude we are simpatico on that one. I notice that we like to throw that word, heretic, around. I never heard anyone use it except for the lay.

not in reference to bishops.

[jasJis]

The Laity is WAY too over anxious to criticize other Catholics (including Clergy) and forget to temper themselves with charity, humility, patience, and respect for the Graces provided through the Sacrament Holy Orders.

Frankly, personally witnessing people criticizing priests, Bishops, and the Church with apparent glee and ease, smacks of Protestantism more than people holding hands during the Our Father. (And I'm not talking about just people on-line, I'm talking about real-life people in my parish. Frightening.)

[christopher]

I agree with these ideas completely. Do you know why? Hmmm... Maybe because I'm actually a Catholic. It's like going to Mass and seeing someone genuflect and saying "Mom, look a Catholic!!!!!"

The point is what can we DO to help nurture reverence in God's house without totally leaving to attend only Latin Masses(although I would probably if I could)? Just two days ago I spoke with our very wonderful priest and he agreed competely with a touch of resentment about people not listening(as he has preached about everything like genuflecting about six times last year). This is what we must do. Speak with our priests, bishops, anyone in charge,RCIA teachers(who are BAD examples a lot). Also let us gracefully set the example and know that you all are not alone in this!

Also, yes, let us pray for vocations. There are communities for both men and women where you will not find that kind of disrespect, most of them giving the Novus Ordo even. I might suggest looking into them. One is Society of St. John Cantius in Chicago(for men at least). I'm going there on St Valentine's Day. They give Tridentine, N.O., and N.O. in Latin, and are investigating other rites as well. They are approved by the bishop. Pax Christi.

[Laudate_Dominum]

It's the Pope's job to appoint and check bishops. Calling a bishop a conservative, moderate, or liberal are opinions and are very different than judging a bishop and labeling him to be a heretic. Heretic is a very strong word that implies something horrible and to be used wrongly is very disrespectful. The power to judge comes with authority and other than God only specific people in a society, outlined by scripture, have the right to judge. Discernment is one thing, but passing judgement on a bishop, which is a finite action, is not a right of the laity.

I agree, I am just a layman so it is not my place to declare a heretic. But the church defines heresy for a reason and if a person (lay, priest, Bishop) is saying something that has been condemned he is spouting off heresy I don't think it's a big deal to say that. The priest who preaches that Christ only had a human nature is preaching a heresy, he's a heretic. I'm in no way applying people should be imprudent, uncharitable, or any other bad thing. I'm simply saying that we can and should make judgements about heresy and liberalism. For example I had a theology class with a teacher who repeatly taught doctrines that I knew to be formally condemned by the Church. I charitable approached the teacher, assuming he was perhaps ignorant that the Church had condemned these positions, I found out the teacher knew they were condemned and heard some new heretical statements that were even more frightening than the first ones. After that I judged that this professor was liberal and heretical and decided not to take their classes anymore. Was this wrong? Had the professor been a Bishop would this have been wrong?

[M.SIGGA]

If your discernment lead you to leave the class, fine. You attempted to instruct the ignorant, fine. Do you have the right to pronounce judgement on him as being a heretic, no. Liberal or Progressive, yes, but not a Heretic.

The Inquisition existed as a court seperate from civil courts because there is a scriptural understanding that no member of the laity can judge and label people as heretics outside the Church.

Heresy is a serious charge and is a means for excommunication, so when talking in reference to members of the clergy especially, it can be extremely damaging to use that term if the Pope doesn't judge them to be a heretic. That's what might be sinful on your part.

Hierarchies exist in institutions so people can be checked by their superiors, so take everything with charity and don't overstep your role as a member of the laity.

I agree, I am just a layman so it is not my place to declare a heretic. But the church defines heresy for a reason and if a person (lay, priest, Bishop) is saying something that has been condemned he is spouting off heresy I don't think it's a big deal to say that.

btw this is a contradicting statement. It's not your place, but it's not a big deal ? Please clarify.

[socalscout]

not in reference to bishops.

When I say "we" I mean the laity. We like to throw "heretic" around.

[Laudate_Dominum]

If your discernment lead you to leave the class, fine. You attempted to instruct the ignorant, fine. Do you have the right to pronounce judgement on him as being a heretic, no. Liberal or Progressive, yes, but not a Heretic.

My point was that I didn't pronounce judgement on them as a heretic, the Church did. I simply acknowledged that they hold a view which the Church condemned as heresy. So I'm not declaring them a heretic the Church has already done that, I'm just acknowledging it.

I probably do use the word heresy a little too freely, I'll grant that. But on the other hand there are times when it is important, such as the heretical professor incident. Heresy is just a technical term for bad doctrine anyway, it's not like it's a bad word or something. Maybe I'm just more comfortable with the word than most people. If someone thinking of taking a class with that professor asked me my opinion of them I would certainly say the truth. I would say, "when I had that teacher they were presenting systematic defenses of condemned heresy."

[PedroX]

Laudate,

The question comes back to whether or not you believe in apostolic succession, and episcopal authority. How can we on the one hand say that our Bishop is the head of our local church, and on the other a heretic? Can a Bishop make mistakes? Absolutely! Do we have the authority to call him a heretic? No! As M. Sigga pointed out, heresy is a specific charge that the laity is not qualified to make. That is up to the Congregation for Defense of the Faith, an ecumenical Council or the Pope. We do have options. We are not obliged to obey rules that contradict the laws of God. However, we can not describe ourselves as faithful Catholics and be at war with our Bishops.

peace...

[Laudate_Dominum]

The question comes back to whether or not you believe in apostolic succession, and episcopal authority. How can we on the one hand say that our Bishop is the head of our local church, and on the other a heretic? Can a Bishop make mistakes? Absolutely! Do we have the authority to call him a heretic? No! As M. Sigga pointed out, heresy is a specific charge that the laity is not qualified to make. That is up to the Congregation for Defense of the Faith, an ecumenical Council or the Pope. We do have options. We are not obliged to obey rules that contradict the laws of God. However, we can not describe ourselves as faithful Catholics and be at war with our Bishops.

For the record, of course I believe in everything that the Holy Catholic Church teaches!!!! And I like to think I'd take that to the stake and pyre if I had to.

First of all I never, in any of my posts, called a particular Bishop a heretic. I made references to the existence of heretical clergy in general, which is an undeniable fact. And second, ordination as a priest of Bishop does not make one infallible. Most of the arch-heretics were Bishops and priests. Arius and Nestorius being a couple of big names. Third, I am not aware of any Church statement which says the laity are not allowed to call heresy heresy, or heretics heretics. Certainly we don't have the authority to "charge" someone with heresy, that is a juridical function that we do not possess. Neither can we declare heresy, we can't define doctrine. But once heresy is defined we can and should beware of it. I'm not really saying anything that extraordinary. If my Bishop were to publicly endorse homosexual unions, I'd feel an obligation, because of the countless faithful that would be led astray and the scandal that would be caused, to at least write him a letter concerning this heresy. I'm not going to rally outside the cathedral with a big heretic sign or something. Obviously we should be obedient and respectful of the clergy, they are men who have given their lives to serve Christ's Church. They have renounced so much in order to feed and guide us. And who am I to criticize an apostle!! But, a Bishop is not infallible (except one under certain conditions), they can be just as heretical as any of us. Ack! Nevermind.. I don't think this is going anywhere.. Obviously the word heretic is just too strong for some people.

This is all I'm trying to say:

Bishops can teach false doctrine, who can deny this? When this happens it is most serious. Laity too can read and understand things. If a lay person reads statements from a bishop that correspond to statements of condemned heresy, he can infer that these statements are bad doctrine. If some rogue bishop is willfully spreading bad doctrine, in oposition to the official Magisterium of the Church, he can rightfully be considered a bad doctrine guy, a.k.a. a heretic.

That is all I'm saying for crying out loud. But I get the message, I'll watch my use of the word heretic around you folks.