Catholics Who Critisize Catholics

[socalscout]

I have noticed many lay Catholics who get bent by the actions of their brethren. I guess I am part of them by posting this subject.

Here are some of the topics: ( excuse any spelling errors)

Genuflecting - Many get upset because some do not do it or they do not do it in the direction of the Tabernacle.

Sign of the Cross on entry and exit of the church.

Dress - Many get upset over casual wear in Mass. I'm in SoCal where shorts are the norm so casual wear is pajamas.

Reception of the Eucharist - Using our hands and kneeling. People also assuming their fellow Catholics are in a state of mortal sin and should not receive. I know many who I think are in a state of mortal sin. Should I tell them for the umpteenth time?

People Leaving early - Some get so upset over that and it varies on time of departure.

Appropriate bowing at certain times of the Mass.

Not paying attention - Some people get upset because others get easily distracted by the door, wind,etc. Makes no sense to me because if they were paying attention themselves they would not notice their neighbor.

Tithing - Some get mad if they notice people are not giving their fair share even though they have no clue about them.

Not singing during Mass - This really upsets some people.

Instruments used during Mass - I like the guitar but the drums are a little obtrusive.

I am sure there are more but this is what I have noticed people posting on here and other sites.

I have actually been told that I would go to Hell for not reading the bible(family member told me that). I have been told that I have to name my child after a Saint. I have been told countless of times, throughout my life, of what I should do and what will happen to me if I do not do it.

Here is the thing, I have never been told these things by a Bishop, Priest or Religious. I have been told these things by people sitting in the pews with me. What does that say?

Do we need to lighten up or mind our own business? Are we doing a service to our fellow Catholics by pointing out their indiscretions? Are we casting stones?

I have mixed feelings on the matter. Some of the above “gripes” are legitimate and I concur with my fellow Catholics. There are many Lay that are great assets to the Church and the community but there are some that should not impose their own personal doctrine. What do you think? Take in mind that I probably share your feelings for a more conservative approach in our worship.

Edited January 20, 2004 by socalscout

[Lil Red]

socalscout, i guess i would have to say that yes, we all get upset at one time or another about the things you listed. I have personally over some of them. But I guess IMHO, that some people get really upset because they were raised in a more traditional setting. Or others get upset if they are converts, and were taught one way and see another way in the pews.

But all of us need to remember that respect for our fellow Christians should be reflected in the pews. Remember to pray for them! They need it, they might not know what they are doing is wrong!

I guess that is something that I've been working on. Praying more when someone does something offensive in church, not griping about it. If I pray about it, and pray for them, then I am calming my soul and hopefully they will realize whatever they are doing.

That being said, we need more aggressive education in the pews about what to do in church. Some people never get it explained to them! So we need to step up and do some educating, but in a loving, Christian manner.

Just my 2 cents, socalscout. God bless.

edited for spelling - i can't help it, i'm anal retentive!

Edited January 20, 2004 by Lil Red Devil

[MrsFrozen]

Hi, Socialscout. Yes, I have noticed these things, too. And it is not right to judge, of course. I do notice these things on occasion, though. I try not to let them bother me and pray for them. I just don't feel comfortable going up to a perfect stranger and pointing out what they're doing wrong.

There are two things that bother me in Mass. One is the "Judas shuffle." (I just heard that term over in the "Leaving Early" thread.) The other is a complete lack of participation. Why even go? If you know the responses and don't say them for whatever reason, then are you still fulfilling your obligation of Mass? I think I am going to post that question, actually. People not singing doesn't really ruffle my feathers. It's the lack of participation!

Anywho, that's all.

God bless. :)

[Laudate_Dominum]

Certainly one can become preoccupied with what other people are doing that don't live up to their standards and become judgemental, hypocritical and various other things which aren't necessarily good. However, there are times when I am in deep pain after attending the Holy Mass at a parish where you see people waltzing as casually as they would to a superbowl Sunday barbeque, no invoking of the Holy Trinity in a blessing which is also a reminder and call to gratitude and awe for one's baptism, no genuflection or acknowledgement of Jesus Christ's substantial presence just in total self-oblation for us just a few steps away, no regard for the sacredness and dignity of the Holy Sacrifice that is about to be made present and for which we are to be partakers. Let's face it, lukewarm Catholicism is butt-ugly, and it's an abomination. Some of the extremes I've encountered, where the whole congregation is erupting in frivolous conversation before and after Mass (and a little bit during Mass), etc. are outrageous, heinous acts of profaning the Sacred and in a sense mocking God. I know you aren't talking about the totally extreme scenarios per se, but even the tendency, on a smaller scale is cause for alarm since it is a deterioration, a decaying of the true spirit of worship proper to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Proper "active" participation in the Mass, which is the proper due of so lofty an event as the Mass, is primarily an interior spirit of prayer, reverence, thanksgiving, adoration, petition, and praise. These dispositions are manifested bodily through the proper outward signs such as the kneeling, genuflecting, blessing oneself with the sign of the cross, appropriate verbal responses, participating in singing sacred music, etc. When these outward manifestations are lacking the liturgical ethos is impoverished and the dignity of the Holy Mass offended. What may seem to be getting in other people's business or being judgemental is, in my opinion, often times a symptom of a healthy sensitivity to the beauty, wonder, and prayerful reverence that is due the Mass. Obviously one can respond to pricks to this sensitivity in an appropriate or innappropriate manner, fraternal charity always being a good guide, and remembering to first remove the plank from your own eye.

My goodness I could go on.. Thank you for letting my rant this long. :)

[Laudate_Dominum]

Sorry for spelling and grammer mess ups, I was trying to get something out there in a hurry.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Ack! Grammar.

[M.SIGGA]

is it really lukewarm if you were never taught any different? It's a Christian's duty to instruct the ignorant, but all other problems I say to address the pastor because it's his authority over the ongoings in a parish.

Never judge people because you have no authority to judge - that's why we have freewill and it's between that person and God. Christians need to remember that nothing goes unlooked, and everyone will be held accountable for their sins, period.

There is a shortage of diocesan priests and religious because many people didn't pray about their vocation, so now the pews are full of angry devout people who don't have any authority :lol:

[electricdisk]

I'm pretty old so I grew up in the 70's, right after the changes made in the 60's. I grew up as a 'cradle Catholic" yet I have only recently discovered the beauty and truths of our faith within the last 10 years or so. It was never taught.

The general 'complaints' that you mention are not just petty annoyances (to me). It is the product of rampant ignorance. Inappropriate behaviour in the church fosters an atmosphere of indifference. It takes away the 'holy'-ness of the environment and passes on that disrespect as acceptable, so we (collectively) don't even know how to act 'pious' anymore.

BUT!!! Is NOT intentinal. It is a fundamental lack of understanding because we don't have anything to compare it to, AND no one has taught us any better.

How I long for the days when churches had rows down the middle, pews down the side, altar rails up front and priests who had their backs to us "Offering the sacrifice" to God.

Changes made to 'foster a community' awareness has put the emphasis on our 'feeling good' at mass rather than offering prayers of "thanksgiving" "adoration" "sacrifice" (I forgot the other one)

If God has put it in your heart (as you have obviously read on other boards), then maybe he has given you the gift of 'suffering'. Offer it up. Possibly in silence.....

It bothers me (not because it offends me) but because I feel sorry and sad for the state of the Church and the disrespect that is given to the King of Kings - In his OWN house

We would dress up if we were going to see the president, the pope and even a city mayor....we have it backward!

[Laudate_Dominum]

Sure, it's not cool to judge in a self-righteous way, but judgement is a basic part of human life that we must do constantly just to function. There is an exaggerated anti-judgemental attitude prevailant in our culture. Let's see.. I once went to a parish where I'd regularly see dudes feeling their girlfriend's butts during Mass (even at the consecration), the priest said that belief in the real presence has been optional since vatican II and there wasn't an ounce of reverence or visible participation in the liturgy apart from a few people who would mumble some of the responses. I certainly feel quite justified in making a few judgements about that parish. Obviously we're not in the business of judging people, but lukewarmness and heresey and objective realities that can be discerned. And it doesn't matter if the person knows nothing different, I would assume that is generally the case, so they don't have full culpability. That's not really what I was trying to talk about. I wasn't trying to point fingers at people and condemn them, that's lame. But the fact is there are masses of Catholics in desperate need of proper catechesis and much prayer and there are countless parishes where the Eucharist is being desecrated everyday by fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, blasphemers, and heretical priests who are in fact wolves in sheep's clothing who with their many bastard doctrines seek to devour Christ's flock.

I realise I may be coming off a bit harsh and this is intentional because I think this is a serious issue that is often softened up and down played.

[Laudate_Dominum]

electricdisk - wow. I'm with you my friend.

It's not about being mad at people or anything, it's about suffering because Christ suffers. He has given us the greatest gift His infinite love could come up with in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. "If we knew the value of the Mass we would die of joy." - St. Jean Vianney

"The world would do better without the sun than without the Mass." - St. Padre Pio

In the Holy Mass Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, All Powerful, All Good, All Loving, innocent, spotless, immaculate lamb, wholly annihilates Himself upon the altar to be present to us veiled under the appearance of bread. If we could see Him as He truly is before us, we would be annihilated! But this was not enough, He desires to give everything to use and to be joined with us in our bodies and souls. How unworthy we are of such a gift, infinitely unworthy, and yes, we should suffer that such an unfathomable gift, which even leaves the greatest Angelic Spirits utterly enraptured and stupified, is met with ingratitude, lukewarmness and lack of faith. We cannot return His love as He deserves and this pains His Most Sacred Heart. We too must become an oblation, He draws all men to Himself that we may participate in His once and for all sacrifice and becoming an acceptable offering in Spirit and Truth, to the Father of Lights from whom every good and perfect gift comes.

[socalscout]

I have a general sense of respect without being told. In fact right after receiving communion some friends of ours came over to see our new baby. I was with other family members. I felt very uncomfortable hugging and "socializing" while the Eucharist was being distributed. I felt it was innapropriate so I said my "hellos" and turned and knealed while the rest of the family carried on for about 5 minutes. That bugged me.

My grandfather-in-law stands with arms crossed not saying a word throughtout the whole Mass. To me that is his way and it is none of my business to comment and that goes for everyone else except for the Priest. Actually Father Hal did mention it in a homily about participation. I think it sunk in for some. I still do not sing, at least not very loud.

To me, if the Church does not condemn it then it is not my place to either. I don't think our U.S. Bishops are being wimps when allowing certain practices. I think they are actually pretty good shepards who know what they are doing to keep their flock together. It is not my place to second guess. This is not a democracy.

Just my opinion.

Take care

Edited January 21, 2004 by socalscout

[Mary's Knight, La]

SoCal (am i right in thinking you're abbreviating Southern California?)

very rarely would anyone here really call any of our bishops a wimp (sometimes we might call them heretics but we're pretty certain they're strong in their beliefs or lack of) if we suggest they are being wimpy it is only our frustration at seeing other catholics trying to distort the truth that we know and hope they at least at one time knew and we wish our bishops would do more to encouraging catholics to be *good catholics*

as for issues with dressing for Mass, this is one thing that to the best of my knowledge there is no allowance for local custom in the sense of local custom allowing for more relaxed dress. We should dress for each Mass to the best of our wardrobe possible buying something to wear if we can afford to do so and our current wardrobe contains no suitable attire. would you wear shorts to a business dinner? Mass is the most serious business in the world and it is the only supper at which Christ comes to you in person. In fact, He is the host of the "dinner". so in regards to your comment about shorts I cannot abide shorts being called acceptable.

as for people leaving early let's remember we are fed through the entire Mass on God's Word, the Word Made Flesh, and blessings/prayers, if you don't understand why this upsets us next time you eat supper with someone especially if they're hosting, in the middle of the meal before you've finished eating put down your utensils and walk out the room "because you have other things to do, or other places to be" without saying goodbye. I guarantee you will offend not only the host but any other guests who are there by displaying such bad manners. Again the Mass is much more serious than this hopefully hypothetical supper.

some things are none of our business people showing disrespect for our beliefs especially when they profess (through the creed) to share those beliefs is the business of all Catholics.

[Seatbelt Blue]

For what it's worth, I tend to dress very casually at mass, because I find uncomfortable clothing distracting. I find myself focusing on, say, the wedgie rather than the prayers.

[Paladin D]

Why not just a pair of dockers and a dress shirt? You guys don't need tuxedo's or full suits. Though you can if you want.

[Norseman82]

I think the key here is to determine what is true church teaching and what is merely somebody trying to impose their personal preference as a matter of theology.

However, as far as the naming after a saint, I would read CCC 2156 says that a name of a saint or one that expresses a Christian mystery or virtue. "Parents, sponsors, and the pastor are to see that a name is not given which is foreign to Christian sentiment".