Aloysius Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 i want some thoughts... it seems protestants tend to assume that if Mary had said no God would've just found some other Jewish girl. i don't believe this to be so. i believe that Mary had everyones salvation in her hands... check it: Eve was created sinless into a sinless world, all influences of the world were good and holy influences. then, the serpent, a demon fallen angel, spoke to her, and she chose to receive the evil fruit and bring it upon all humanity. whereas: Mary was created (sinless) into a sinfull world, influences of the world were evil and sinful. then, the Angel Gabriel spoke to her and she chose to recieve the good fruit, the blessed fruit of her womb, and bring it upon all humanity. without the sinless part, it doesn't seem that story fulfills the fall. God didn't just one day completely change his mind on punishing humanity, God just always planned to give them another chance. He was to create another sinless woman and if she fell, it would be the second fall maintaining the original fall. I do not think that we would be redeemed right now if Mary had sinned even just once in her life. and that is the connection between Mary and salvation. that's why Mary is named "co-redemtrix" what think ye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Some of the earliest Christian writings that we have touch upon this point. The fragments of Papias from the early second century, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus of Lyon (Papias was appearantly knew the Apostle John personally and Irenaeus attests that he learned his doctrine from men who knew John) all make use of what is called the New Eve typology. Namely that as Christ is the new Adam with regard to our redemption, Mary is the new Eve. You can find things in the early fathers like "death through Eve, life through Mary", (paraphrase-->) "Just as Eve was tempted by the fallen angel [the serpent] and set in motion man's fall, so Mary by her obedience to an angel (Gabriel) untight the knot of Eve's disobedience to bring forth our redemption". The new Eve typology is incredibly rich and includes all of the Marian truths the Church teaches in seed form. The protoevangelium is often invoked in this regard as well. That God's declarations of enmity between the Woman and the serpent and of her seed etc. represents the first promise of the Messiah who will deliver mankind from. "In the fullness of time God sent his Son born of a woman." As the Church pondered these truths down through the ages they became more sytematically formulated and the concept you speak of is called the joint predestination of Jesus and Mary. In one form we can say that God's decree of redemption, promised after the fall, included the Immaculate Virgin who is at enmity with the serpent (implying her deliverance from the stain of sin) whose seed will conquer (Christ), this is none other than Mary ever virgin, our Queen and our Mother. The Franciscan school of Theology has more precision on this matter and speaks of the eternal, unconditioned, joint predestination of Jesus and Mary, this is a more complex Theological concept which I can't get into here but in essence it says that from all eternity God predestined the Incarnation of the Word through the Virgin Mary's womb regardless of sin. Mary is God's creative masterpiece, the ultimate Woman, His daughter, spouse and mother destined to be exalted above even the Angels to share in the highest degree in Christ's glory in Heaven. This doctrine presupposes a cosmic Christology (which is Scriptural) whereby the Incarnation of the Word is the perfection of the cosmos and the ultimate fulfillment of creation, bringing it to perfection and uniting mankind to God. There is a movement of creation from the Father, expressed in the Word who is the Exemplar, and in the Holy Spirit, through the Word is brought back to the father as an image of the Trinitarian dynamism. The focal point of this, the fullness of time as it were, is the Incarnation. Had man not fallen He would have come in glory as He will in the Eschatological fulfillment of time, but because of sin He has come to us to show us the way through His teachings, and example, and principly His suffering and Death whereby he ransomed us with His own blood and has established His Church, His spotless bride taken from his side in water and blood in death, as Adam's bride was taken from his side in his deep sleep. You mentioned the doctrine of Mary as Coredemptrix. This is also implied in the New Eve typology. This doctrine basically says that Mary, as the New Eve and as the Exemplar and perfection of the Church, by virtue of Her divine maternity and singular deliverance from the effects of sin, merited at the foot of the cross, in profound union with Her Son, to be the spiritual mother of the Church and Christ proclaimed when He said "behold your Mother" and as Simeon prophesied when he said "and a sword shall pierce your heart...". There is obviously much more to all of this but this is kind of the jist of it. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 is it safe to assume no protestant wishes to argue against the Blessed Mother? ^_^ :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Some kind of action would be nice, any thread about Our Lady has got potential. :funeral: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 In the book of Luke, chapter one it says: 30. Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. So it doesn't seem as though Our Lady was given much of a choice! That isn't to dispute God's decision, he obviously knew what He was doing and picked the right woman. As a hypothetical question, however it is fascinating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thicke Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 (edited) So it doesn't seem as though Our Lady was given much of a choice! That isn't to dispute God's decision, he obviously knew what He was doing and picked the right woman. No, she chose it. This is a pure example of the freewill God gave all of us. Read Luke 1:38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. Here, Mary is complying with the wishes of God. She could have said, "I don't think so!", if she wanted to. But she didn't..... Note also that the St. Gabriel hung around long enough to get an answer. Also CCC #490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role" (LG 56). The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace" (Lk 1:28). In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace. Note the "free assent of faith to the announcement of her vocation" part. Edited January 22, 2004 by thicke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Hi, I'm a protestant. I don't believe God would have just found some other jewish girl. I think God had special favor towards Mary. But I also believe God knew Mary would say yes, even though she had completely free will to say no. God is smart like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I don't believe God would have just found some other jewish girl. I think God had special favor towards Mary. But I also believe God knew Mary would say yes, even though she had completely free will to say no. God is smart like that. Brother, I agree with you on this. Mary was predestined (in the Catholic sense) from all eternity for this special vocation. And God knew she would say yes by His Divine foreknowledge of all things. But nonetheless she said yes with free will because foreknowledge is not determinism. You are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Brother, I agree with you on this. Mary was predestined (in the Catholic sense) from all eternity for this special vocation. And God knew she would say yes by His Divine foreknowledge of all things. But nonetheless she said yes with free will because foreknowledge is not determinism. You are cool. Bro is catholic, he just hasn't desidend yet whether or not he wants that spelled with a capital C. You are cool Bro. Glad you are posting more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I agree with Bro. Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 23, 2004 Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 Hi, I'm a protestant. I don't believe God would have just found some other jewish girl. I think God had special favor towards Mary. But I also believe God knew Mary would say yes, even though she had completely free will to say no. God is smart like that. yeah, i knew that... i didn't intend to go into the predestination part of it though... i was just wondrin ''what ifs''... thinkin from a human perspective to keep things simplified and learn more about it. thinkin from a human perspective, not God's perspective of foreknowledge and all that, y is it that Mary gets the choice... does it not make the most sense in the total reverse of the fall of man for her to be a second chance, and if she's a second chance why wouldn't she be sinless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I seriously think God has a sense of humor and often times cracks up at our thoughts and some of the things we do. We can speculate from a human perspective this question, but we can also speculate "What if Satan were to change his mind and want forgiveness from God?" or "What if God actually made a rock so big he couldn't lift it?" yeah, we can think about it, but we know the truth of the matter is, he's God and how the heck someone can have total free will and yet, be predestined (God knows all) is as mysterious as the Trinity. It's like M.C. Eschers paintings....it makes sense...but it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 You are cool Bro. Glad you are posting more. You know that in return you have to buy my book right? :rolling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 23, 2004 Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 touchee. but still, the choice was made, predestined though it may be. now, was this choice made by someone who was the new Eve? not to say she in any way woulda, and God knew she wouldn't, but if she had said no Jesus wouldn't have entered the world. now this isn't the way it happened and this isn't the way God knew it would happen, but just for the sake of delving into deeper knowledge of Mary's role in this let's use an if statement. cuz it was a choice and if we were alive at that exact moment watching from the stands we would see that she could have gone either way. she said yes, Christ came, the way God predestined it to happen ever since Eve first fell. the question is, was that choice powerful? all free will choices are powerful since our free will is empowered and endowed upon us by God. therefore, by that free choice of Mary, the Saving Fruit entered the world. is this not a new Eve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 You know that in return you have to buy my book right? :rolling: Dude, you know I've got first dibs right?? I totally want it. And I'll pay good money to have it. As long as "good money" is less than $20. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now