Are The Skin Cells Of Christ To Be Adored

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1158597' date='Jan 7 2007, 10:57 PM']
Actually, where the relics of Christ's Skin Cells are does not concern me. When I made this poll I was just trying to come up with some obscure human cell, but skin cells were especially appealing since they are shed very frequently.

By adore, I didn't mean "find the skin cells of Christ and adore Them as you would the Holy Eucharist" I meant more "Pray to the Most Sacred Skin Cells of Christ as you would to His Most Sacred Heart".

Oh, and also, they only have about enough relics of the True Cross to make up about 1/3 of It...



It would seem to me, that if His Divinity wasn't separated from His Body when He died, It wouldn't be separated from His Skin Cells either when they were separated from His Body.
[/quote]

This is true. However, it's also likely that His non-glorified skin cells deteriorated after being shed and that glorified skin cells don't shed...so I don't think they'd remain. Blood, however, does remain, because it is in the nature of blood to collect together and form into clots.

Here's a question for you...knowing that His divinity remains united with His Blood, was the Blood He shed in the Passion, collected, perhaps, on cloths (as in the Passion), once His Body was glorified, was His spilt Blood, though separate from His Body, also glorified?

[thessalonian]

I should ask for clarification in answering the affirmative. Dead cells would not recieve latria any more than the eucharist that is decomposing in our stomachs.

[phatcatholic]

I dunno, maybe I'm missing something blatantly obvious, but I don't agree with the majority opinion in this thread. We can actually worship a part of Jesus' body the same way we worship Jesus Himself? That just doesn't seem right to me. Yes, His divinity is hypostatically united with his humanity, but isn't this a humanity [b][i]whole and entire[/i][/b]? A skin cell isn't Jesus Christ. A finger isn't Jesus Christ. I don't think the reality of the Incarnation demands that we believe that any part separated from Him is in any way divine like He is as a person.

My understanding is that the reason we believe that the consecrated bread is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ is because these are all parts that make up Jesus as he exists whole and entire (not parts that have been separated from Him). It's a way of expressing the truth that Jesus, in his entirety, is present in the Eucharist. But, in Eucharistic Adoration, we don't worship the blood of Christ, or the skin cells of Christ, or the hair of Christ, or the fingernails of Christ. We worship the whole person, the God-man Jesus Christ.

Also, I always understood prayers to the Sacred Heart as not being prayers to the actual organ that pumped blood in Jesus' Body, but to the God who is love, a love that is wonderfully symbolized by the Sacred Heart. A petition to the Sacred Heart is a petition for the love of Christ.

Am I totally off-base? Let me know.....

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Thessalonian'] I should ask for clarification in answering the affirmative. Dead cells would not recieve latria any more than the eucharist that is decomposing in our stomachs. [/quote]

Thessalonian, you are incorrect, it has been defined that Christ's Divinity remained was not separated from His Body when He died (See the quote from the Roman Catechism in my previous post), therefore, It would not separate from His dead Skin Cells.

[quote name='Phatcatholic'] I dunno, maybe I'm missing something blatantly obvious, but I don't agree with the majority opinion in this thread. We can actually worship a part of Jesus' body the same way we worship Jesus Himself? huh.gif That just doesn't seem right to me. Yes, His divinity is hypostatically united with his humanity, but isn't this a humanity whole and entire? A skin cell isn't Jesus Christ. A finger isn't Jesus Christ. I don't think the reality of the Incarnation demands that we believe that any part separated from Him is in any way divine like He is as a person. [/quote]

Christ's Body, and every part of It is Divine and is hypostatically united to His Divinity, and threfoere is Divine. A Divine Being is God and ONLY Latria is due to God and it would be wrong to adore Him with another form of worship, therefore, each part of Christ's Human Nature is to be adored with Latria because it is united to His Divine Nature. As has been posted, even if His Body is separated is separated from His Soul It is still Divine. Moreover, as I have once said, "Just as Latria is due to the whole Human nature of Christ, so is it due to the individual parts of His nature. (Sent. Certa.)" is a defined Dogma, according to Ott's [i]Fundamentals[/i]

[quote name='Phatcatholic'] My understanding is that the reason we believe that the consecrated bread is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ is because these are all parts that make up Jesus as he exists whole and entire (not parts that have been separated from Him). It's a way of expressing the truth that Jesus, in his entirety, is present in the Eucharist. But, in Eucharistic Adoration, we don't worship the blood of Christ, or the skin cells of Christ, or the hair of Christ, or the fingernails of Christ. We worship the whole person, the God-man Jesus Christ. [/quote]

The Catechsim of Pope St. Pius X teaches

"7 Q. What other relation has the Sacrifice of the Mass to that of the Cross?
A. Another relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to that of the Cross is, that the Sacrifice of the Mass represents in a sensible way the shedding of the Blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross, because, in virtue of the words of consecration, only the Body of our Saviour is made present under the species of the bread and only His Blood under the species of the wine; although by natural concomitance and by the hypostatic union, the living And real Jesus Christ is present under each of the species."

and

"17 Q. Under the species of the bread is there only the Body of Jesus Christ and under the species of the wine only His Blood?
A. Both under the species of the bread and under the species of the wine the living Jesus Christ is all present, with His Body, His Blood, His Soul and His Divinity.

18 Q. Can you tell me why Jesus Christ is whole and entire both in the host and in the chalice?
A. Both in the host and in the chalice Jesus Christ is whole and entire, because He is living and immortal in the Eucharist as He is in heaven; hence where His Body is, there also are His Blood, His Soul, and His Divinity; and where His Blood is, there also are His Body, His Soul and His Divinity, all these being inseparable in Jesus Christ."

I would argue that we [i]do[/i] adore Blood of Christ, as evidenced by the list of indulgenced prayers (from the 1866 Raccolata) to It which you can find here: [url="http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/raccolta/blood.htm"]http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/raccolta/blood.htm[/url]

Moreover, we adore the whole Human Nature of Christ, as well as all Its Parts.

[quote name='Phatcatholic'] Also, I always understood prayers to the Sacred Heart as not being prayers to the actual organ that pumped blood in Jesus' Body, but to the God who is love, a love that is wonderfully symbolized by the Sacred Heart. A petition to the Sacred Heart is a petition for the love of Christ. [/quote]

[quote name='Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma Book One' date=' Part One, Chapter Five'] Althouch in and for themselves all parts of Christ's human nature are in equal manner worthy veneration, still, since the times of the Crusades, a special veneration has developed from the individual parts of His human nature, for the Five Holy Wounds adn the members associated with them, the Most Prectious Blood, the Hoy Face, the Head of the Suffering Redeemer, adn the Most Sacred Heart. Again, the mysteries of His life, His suffering, His death, His concepion, birth, etc., are analogically objects of the worship of Latria. The reason why these parts of the human nature, or these facts of Christ's life are specially venerated, lies in the fact that in them the redeeming love of Christ is especially clerly revealed (obiectum manifestitionis.
1. Dogmatic Basis of Veneration
The cult of the Heart of Jesus, which was bitterly assailed by the Jansenists and which originated in the German mysticism of the Middle Ages, has its dogmatic basis on the dogma of the Hypostatic Union. Against the slanders of the Jansenists, Pope Pius VI declared that the Heart of Jesus is not separated or disolved from the Godhead (cum separatione vel praecisione a divinatate), but rather adored as "the heart of the Person of the Word, with which it is inseparably united" (cor personae Verbi, cui inseparabiliter unitum est). D 1563.
2.Object of Veneration
a) The immediate object (obiectum proximum, ob, materiale partiale) of the cult of the Heart of Jesus is the corporeal Heart of Jesus as an essintial constituent part of the human nature of Christ, hypostatically united with the Logos, and not mearly the heart in a metapholical sense (=love). This is clear from the controversy with the Jansenists and from the liturgical Texts. [/quote]

Edited January 9, 2007 by StThomasMore

[Socrates]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1158597' date='Jan 7 2007, 11:57 PM']
By adore, I didn't mean "find the skin cells of Christ and adore Them as you would the Holy Eucharist" I meant more "Pray to the Most Sacred Skin Cells of Christ as you would to His Most Sacred Heart".
[/quote]
This is a totally ridiculous thread, imo.

Why on earth would one pray to "the Most Sacred Skin Cells of Christ"???
That sounds like something out of a bad Monty Python skit, rather than any kind of possible serious Catholic devotion.

One has a devotion to the Most Sacred Heart because it is seen as the seat of Christ's infinite love for us. Skin cells would have no such significance.

What's next, praying to "the Most Sacred Toenails of Christ"? "The Most Sacred Small Intestine of Christ"??

And when dead matter leaves the body, it is no longer part of that person in a metaphysical sense. Once the cells are dead, they are no longer the body of Christ.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]This is a totally ridiculous thread, imo.

Why on earth would one pray to "the Most Sacred Skin Cells of Christ"???
That sounds like something out of a bad Monty Python skit, rather than any kind of possible serious Catholic devotion.

One has a devotion to the Most Sacred Heart because it is seen as the seat of Christ's infinite love for us. Skin cells would have no such significance.

What's next, praying to "the Most Sacred Toenails of Christ"? "The Most Sacred Small Intestine of Christ"??

And when dead matter leaves the body, it is no longer part of that person in a metaphysical sense. Once the cells are dead, they are no longer the body of Christ. [/quote]

The Church does not agree with you on the thought that dead Parts of Christ's Human Nature no longer are united to His Divinity hypostatically. Did you not even read my last post? The Church, in her devotions to the Sacred Heart is not meerly His Heart in the metaphorical sense, but His Heart in the corporeal sense.

Edited January 9, 2007 by StThomasMore

[Norseman82]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1158597' date='Jan 7 2007, 10:57 PM']
Actually, where the relics of Christ's Skin Cells are does not concern me. When I made this poll I was just trying to come up with some obscure human cell, but skin cells were especially appealing since they are shed very frequently.[/quote]

Well, what brought this question up in the first place, then??? Is there some practical application to the theoretical here that you are trying to communicate?

Edited January 9, 2007 by Norseman82

[Resurrexi]

Yes, I'm trying to communicate that all the Parts of Christ's Human Nature are to be adored with Latria.

[thessalonian]

[quote]Thessalonian, you are incorrect, it has been defined that Christ's Divinity remained was not separated from His Body when He died (See the quote from the Roman Catechism in my previous post), therefore, It would not separate from His dead Skin Cells.[/quote]

Apparently you didn't read very carefuly. I never spoke about his body when he died. I was speaking, somewhat ridiculously I might add, of all the skin cells that wash away in our daily lives. Was each one of them his divinity as it rotted in to the ground? That is all I was saying. Otherwise we could worship the groun where he walked and his blood spilled in Jerusalem. That ground would be God today. It's silly.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1159787' date='Jan 9 2007, 08:50 AM']
Apparently you didn't read very carefuly. I never spoke about his body when he died. I was speaking, somewhat ridiculously I might add, of all the skin cells that wash away in our daily lives. Was each one of them his divinity as it rotted in to the ground? That is all I was saying. Otherwise we could worship the groun where he walked and his blood spilled in Jerusalem. That ground would be God today. It's silly.
[/quote]

If His Body contained His Whole Divinity even after He died, so would the parts which died while He was still alive (as the prayers to His Precious Blood which was spilt for us show). There are theories which I can think about that would explain how we could adore these Parts of His Human Nature.

1) When the Parts of His Human Nature died and fell off, they remained united to His Divinity until They were no longer able to be recognised as what They were. They would have been long ago desinigrated so would no longer be recognisable, and therefore, no longer to be adored with Latria. 2) They were ressurected with the Main Part of the Body of Christ and once more were joined not only His Divinity, but also with His soul. Then when Christ ascended to Heaven, all the former Parts which were formerly dead, but now part of the living main Part of His Body, ascended with Him as they were physically connected to the Main Part of His Body. 3) The Parts of His Human Nature which fell of Him are still in the places where They were, but we know not where they be, so we cannot name where they are and adore them as we would the Holy Eucharist which is in front of us in the tabernacle, but They are still worthy of adoration and can be adored from anywhere in the world by prayers to Them.

If any of these theories are contrary to the teachings of the Church, please inform me.

[thessalonian]

Interesting thought. I guess if he was sinless his flesh would not decompose. However the Eucharist at some point no longer contains his divinity so I am not sure how that all fits.

[Socrates]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1159444' date='Jan 8 2007, 11:13 PM']
The Church does not agree with you on the thought that dead Parts of Christ's Human Nature no longer are united to His Divinity hypostatically. Did you not even read my last post? The Church, in her devotions to the Sacred Heart is not meerly His Heart in the metaphorical sense, but His Heart in the corporeal sense.
[/quote]
Once something is dead, it is no longer part of a person. It is no longer informed by a soul, and begins to decay and become non-living particles.

The Sacred Heart is part of the Living Christ, not dead matter.

What I am saying is based on Thomistic philosophy. If the "Church does not agree with me", please provide sources to back it up, rather than just claiming to speak for the Church.

Thessalonian does a pretty good job of explaining what I am getting at here.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Once something is dead, it is no longer part of a person. It is no longer informed by a soul, and begins to decay and become non-living particles. [/quote]

The Dead Body of Our Lord was still hypostatically united to His divinity during the three days during which It lay in the tomb while His Soul descended into Limbo:

[quote name='The Catechsim of the Council of Trent']Moreover as Christ was true and perfect man, He of course was capable of dying. Now man dies when the soul is separate the body. When, therefore, we say that Jesus died, we mean that His soul was disunited from His body. We do not admit however, that the Divinity was separated from His body. On the contrary, we firmly believe and profess that when His soul was dissociated from His body, His Divinity continued always united both to His body in the sepulcher and to His soul in limbo. It became the Son of God to die, that, through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death that is the devil, and might deliver them, who through the fear of death were all their lifetime subject to servitude.[/quote]

I would also argue that even after we die, our body still belongs to us, for at the End of Time our souls shall be reunited with our bodies:

[quote name='The Catechism of the Council of Trent'] But the members especially, because they belong to the integrity of human nature, shall all be restored at once. The blind from nature or disease, the lame, the maimed and the paralyzed in any of [b]their [/b]members shall rise again with entire and perfect bodies. Otherwise the desires of the soul, which so strongly incline it to a union with the body, would be far from satisfied; but we are convinced that in the resurrection these desires will be fully realized. [/quote]

The use of the word "their" before the word "members" clearly shows that, even after death when your rational soul--that which makes you a man--is separated from your body, your body still belongs to you and shall be returned to you.

[quote] The Sacred Heart is part of the Living Christ, not dead matter. [/quote]

The Sacred Heart, as well as all Christ's other members (including the Skin Cells which He had on His Body when He was ressurected), ARE part of the Living Christ now and forever, but for three days, WERE part of Christ's dead, Divine Body.

[quote]What I am saying is based on Thomistic philosophy. If the "Church does not agree with me", please provide sources to back it up, rather than just claiming to speak for the Church.[/quote]

I've quoted Ott about how all of the Parts of Christ's Human Nature are to be adored with Latria. I've quoted the Catechism about How Christ's dead Body was never separated from His divinity. What more do you want?

[Paddington]

StThomasMore,

If your finger got chopped off, would it still be a part of you? I don't have a point of view here, I just wonder what you will say.

Peace,
Paddington

[Resurrexi]

[quote]StThomasMore,

If your finger got chopped off, would it still be a part of you? I don't have a point of view here, I just wonder what you will say.

Peace,
Paddington[/quote]

Why are you asking me this? The finger may not be connected to me any longer, but it would still belong to me.

Rome has said that ALL the Parts (i. e. body parts) of Christ's Human Nature are to be adored with Latria, and if you believe differently, you are a heretic.

Rome has also said that Christ's divinity remain united to His dead Body. If you believe differently, you are a heretic.