Arguably, A Just War

[Anything4Him]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1157849' date='Jan 6 2007, 11:14 PM']
Hey Soc if you choose to dissent from the Vatican, the current pope and the former pope, that's your decision.

But it doesn't make the war just
[/quote]

Very well stated.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1157254' date='Jan 6 2007, 01:59 AM']
I did answer your question.

OT does not apply to this current situation.
However the stance of the Vatican has direct relevance.

Why would a Catholic, who is to assent his will to the Church, dissent in a matter that the Vatican has spoken about?
[/quote]

Not to change teh subject but these same Vatican officials came out stongly against the execution of Saddam Hussein. They said that his execution was wrong. But we know that the OT does not say that and Jesus didn't change it. Therefore, the church allows for it. I don't see why the same does not hold for Knight's example.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1157903' date='Jan 7 2007, 12:22 AM']
Not to change teh subject but these same Vatican officials came out stongly against the execution of Saddam Hussein. They said that his execution was wrong. But we know that the OT does not say that and Jesus didn't change it. Therefore, the church allows for it. I don't see why the same does not hold for Knight's example.
[/quote]

Jesus didn't change it? He stopped the adulterous woman from being executed didn't he?

Do people actually think that two popes and the Vatican ignore Church history when making any proclamation about a moral issue?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1157312' date='Jan 6 2007, 10:06 AM']
Old Testament taught that it was just to have adulterous women stoned to death. Was Jesus wrong to stop that woman from being killed?

Again you are arguing against the Vatican, not just me. The burden of proof then lies on you, not me.
[/quote]


God did not stone adulterous women, man did, however God did order His people to engage in "first strike" and preemptive wars.

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1158294' date='Jan 7 2007, 05:59 PM']
God did not stone adulterous women, man did, however God did order His people to engage in "first strike" and preemptive wars.
[/quote]

It was one of the laws of Moses to stone an adulterous woman. The Jews believed that the laws were inspired from God since he is the lawgiver.

And again, you still don't want to respond to the fact that you are dissenting with two popes and the Vatican.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1158301' date='Jan 7 2007, 07:07 PM']
It was one of the laws of Moses to stone an adulterous woman. The Jews believed that the laws were inspired from God since he is the lawgiver.

And again, you still don't want to respond to the fact that you are dissenting with two popes and the Vatican.
[/quote]


The Law of Moses, also allowed divorce. God tolerated many things for which He never gave an official approval. However God as recorded by the Old Testament did in fact order first strikes and preemptive wars on the enemies of God and/or His people, which have little to nothing to do with The Law of Moses.

I am loyal to the dogmatic and infallibly teachings of Holy Mother Church.

Because I show how the Iraq war could be just, does not make me a dissenter of Holy Mother Church.

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1158361' date='Jan 7 2007, 07:01 PM']
The Law of Moses, also allowed divorce. God tolerated many things for which He never gave an official approval. However God as recorded by the Old Testament did in fact order first strikes and preemptive wars on the enemies of God and/or His people, which have little to nothing to do with The Law of Moses.

I am loyal to the dogmatic and infallibly teachings of Holy Mother Church.

Because I show how the Iraq war could be just, does not make me a dissenter of Holy Mother Church.
[/quote]


Yes the laws of Moses also allowed for divorce. And the laws of Moses are held to be divinely willed by God. (seriously, ask around) So if that's the case, why isn't it the case today? Perhaps Jesus came to establish the new law? hmmm...

And as far as ordering first strikes and preemptive wars ordered by God, care to give your example of this? I'd be curious to see. I can't recall off the top of my head where that happened and it was preemptive or first strike. ( I remember a lot of reclaiming land but not the Israelites being oppressors. But I could be wrong)

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1158395' date='Jan 7 2007, 08:41 PM']
Yes the laws of Moses also allowed for divorce. And the laws of Moses are held to be divinely willed by God. (seriously, ask around) So if that's the case, why isn't it the case today? Perhaps Jesus came to establish the new law? hmmm...[/quote]

Divorce has never been divinely willed by God, divorce is against Divine Law now and has always been so, even then. Christ points this out in Matthew

"Have ye not read, that he who made man [color="#FF0000"]from the beginning[/color], Made them male and female? And he said: 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.

6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. [color="#FF0000"]What therefore God hath joined together, [u]let no man[/u] put asunder.[/color] 7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? 8 He saith to them: [color="#FF0000"]Because Moses[/color] by reason of the hardness of [color="#FF0000"][u]your[/u][/color] heart permitted you to put away your wives: [color="#FF0000"]but from the beginning it was not so[/color]."

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1158395' date='Jan 7 2007, 08:41 PM']
And as far as ordering first strikes and preemptive wars ordered by God, care to give your example of this? I'd be curious to see. I can't recall off the top of my head where that happened and it was preemptive or first strike. ( I remember a lot of reclaiming land but not the Israelites being oppressors. But I could be wrong)
[/quote]

I am surprised you do not recall the "First Strike" by God Himself on the Pharao's oncoming army after the Exodus from Egypt. Before the army of the Pharao can attack the Israelites, God strikes first.

[quote]Exodus 14:26-"And [u]the Lord[/u] said to Moses: Stretch forth they hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots and horsemen. 27 And when Moses had stretched forth his hand towards the sea, it returned at the first break of day to the former place: and as the Egyptians were fleeing away, the waters came upon them, and the Lord shut them up in the middle of the waves. 28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots and the horsemen of all the army of Pharao, who had come into the sea after them, neither did there so much as one of them remain. 29 But the children of Israel marched through the midst of the sea upon dry land, and the waters were to them as a wall on the right hand and on the left: 30 And the Lord delivered Israel on that day out of the hands of the Egyptians.

31 And they saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore, and the mighty hand that the Lord had used against them: and the people feared the Lord, and they believed the Lord, and Moses his servant."[/quote]

and

[quote]Exodus 15:3-5 "The Lord is as a man of war, Almighty is his name. 4 Pharao's chariots and his army he hath cast into the sea: his chosen captains are drowned in the Red Sea. 5 The depths have covered them, they are sunk to the bottom like a stone."[/quote]

Alot of the Old testament wars where first strikes and preemptive, and commanded by God Himself. But Deuteronomy comes to mind, God orders His people to destroy the nations of Hethite, Gergezite, Amorrhite, Chanannite, Pherezite, Hevite, and Jebusite. All of which had not attacked in any way to the best of my memory the Israelites. Even so God orders the Israelites to strike those people first, or preemptively, and they obey.

[quote]Deuteronomy 7:1-10 "When the Lord thy God shall have brought thee into the land, which thou art going in to possess, and shall have destroyed many nations before thee, the Hethite, and the Gergezite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, and the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, seven nations much more numerous than thou art, and stronger than thou: 2 And the Lord thy God shall have delivered them to thee, thou shalt utterly destroy them. Thou shalt make no league with them, nor shew mercy to them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them. Thou shalt not give thy daughter to his son, nor take his daughter for thy son: 4 For she will turn away thy son from following me, that he may rather serve strange gods, and the wrath of the Lord will be kindled, and will quickly destroy thee. 5 But thus rather shall you deal with them: Destroy their altars, and break their statues, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven things.

6 Because thou art a holy people to the Lord thy God. The Lord thy God hath chosen thee, to be his peculiar people of all peoples that are upon the earth. 7 Not because you surpass all nations in number, is the Lord joined unto you, and hath chosen you, for you are the fewest of any people: 8 But because the Lord hath loved you, and hath kept his oath, which he swore to your fathers: and hath brought you out with a strong hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, out of the hand of Pharao the king of Egypt. 9 And thou shalt know that the Lord thy God, he is a strong and faithful God, keeping his covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments, unto a thousand generations: 10 And repaying forthwith them that hate him, so as to destroy them, without further delay immediately rendering to them what they deserve."
[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1157849' date='Jan 7 2007, 12:14 AM']
Hey Soc if you choose to dissent from the Vatican, the current pope and the former pope, that's your decision.

But it doesn't make the war just
[/quote]
The Pope said there may be a legitimate diversity of opionion regrading the waging of wars.

A "diversity of opinion" means Catholics may legitimately debate this issue. No need to treat those who offer opposing opinions as heretics.

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1158395' date='Jan 7 2007, 08:41 PM']
Yes the laws of Moses also allowed for divorce. And the laws of Moses are held to be divinely willed by God. (seriously, ask around) So if that's the case, why isn't it the case today? Perhaps Jesus came to establish the new law? hmmm...

And as far as ordering first strikes and preemptive wars ordered by God, care to give your example of this? I'd be curious to see. I can't recall off the top of my head where that happened and it was preemptive or first strike. ( I remember a lot of reclaiming land but not the Israelites being oppressors. But I could be wrong)
[/quote]
Read the Book of Exodus. The Israelites took the Promised Land from the Canaanites.

And God does not command that which is intrinsically immoral.

Edited January 8, 2007 by Socrates

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1158604' date='Jan 7 2007, 11:04 PM']
Divorce has never been divinely willed by God, divorce is against Divine Law now and has always been so, even then. Christ points this out in Matthew

"Have ye not read, that he who made man [color="#FF0000"]from the beginning[/color], Made them male and female? And he said: 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.

6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. [color="#FF0000"]What therefore God hath joined together, [u]let no man[/u] put asunder.[/color] 7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? 8 He saith to them: [color="#FF0000"]Because Moses[/color] by reason of the hardness of [color="#FF0000"][u]your[/u][/color] heart permitted you to put away your wives: [color="#FF0000"]but from the beginning it was not so[/color]."
I am surprised you do not recall the "First Strike" by God Himself on the Pharao's oncoming army after the Exodus from Egypt. Before the army of the Pharao can attack the Israelites, God strikes first.
and
Alot of the Old testament wars where first strikes and preemptive, and commanded by God Himself. But Deuteronomy comes to mind, God orders His people to destroy the nations of Hethite, Gergezite, Amorrhite, Chanannite, Pherezite, Hevite, and Jebusite. All of which had not attacked in any way to the best of my memory the Israelites. Even so God orders the Israelites to strike those people first, or preemptively, and they obey.
[/quote]


Sorry

Not preemptive nor first strike. You need to go back in your bible a bit guys. The land of Canaan originally was settled by Abraham (Gen13:14) for his descendants. The Israelites were reclaiming the land that they lost.

And the attack on Pharoahs men was a first strike? They were the oppressors. The Israelites were slaves. That was the first action.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1158632' date='Jan 7 2007, 11:31 PM']
The Pope said there may be a legitimate diversity of opionion regrading the waging of wars.

A "diversity of opinion" means Catholics may legitimately debate this issue. No need to treat those who offer opposing opinions as heretics.

[/quote]

Typical liberal response

I didn't call you a heretic. I said you were dissenting from two popes and the Vatican

and you are

and again, it doesn't make it a just war

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1158713' date='Jan 8 2007, 01:38 AM']
Sorry

Not preemptive nor first strike. You need to go back in your bible a bit guys. The land of Canaan originally was settled by Abraham (Gen13:14) for his descendants. The Israelites were reclaiming the land that they were thrown off of.
[/quote]


Sorry Jamie. But in fact you are talking of a different war and a different time. This "reclaiming" would have been and different war not the same.

Hundreds of years have pasted since the time of Abraham to the time of Moses, and the "reclaiming" of the Promise Land.

Therefor we are talking about to distinct wars,
1. The Israelites being removed from the Promised land.

2. Hundreds of years later the Israelites come back to the promise land, and are command to preemptively attack the enemies presently in the Promised Land.

Saying these two distinct wars are in fact one war would be like saying WWI and WWII are [u]one[/u] war. Which is not the case.

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1158732' date='Jan 8 2007, 12:54 AM']
Sorry Jamie. But in fact you are talking of a different war and a different time. This "reclaiming" would have been and different war not the same.

Hundreds of years have pasted since the time of Abraham to the time of Moses, and the "reclaiming" of the Promise Land.

Therefor we are talking about to distinct wars,
1. The Israelites being removed from the Promised land.

2. Hundreds of years later the Israelites come back to the promise land, and are command to preemptively attack the enemies presently in the Promised Land.

Saying these two distinct wars are in fact one war would be like saying WWI and WWII are [u]one[/u] war. Which is not the case.
[/quote]

Again Knight, you're off the mark. It does not matter how long it has been since the Israelites were captured and taken away from their land. It cannot be considered a first strike to take back what was theirs originally.

It doesn't have to be one war.

Maybe you can find a working example

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1158713' date='Jan 8 2007, 01:38 AM']
And the attack on Pharoahs men was a first strike? They were the oppressors. The Israelites were slaves. That was the first action.
[/quote]


But there was no war between the Israelites and the Egyptians when the People of God were slaves of the Egyptians. When the Israelites crossed threw the sea, they were [u]not[/u] slaves, but a free people. The oppression of the Israelites by the Egyptians was over because, the Israelites were free no longer in bondage to Pharoah. God had freed His people.

It is very clear from Exodus the Pharoah had intend to engage in war, combat, or open conflict with the Israelites. Which would have been a true war, or battle between the Israelites and Pharoahs army. However before the Egyptians could attack, God took the first strike and attacked and drowned Pharoahs army.

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1158746' date='Jan 8 2007, 01:08 AM']
But there was no war between the Israelites and the Egyptians when the People of God were slaves of the Egyptians. When the Israelites crossed threw the sea, they were [u]not[/u] slaves, but a free people. The oppression of the Israelites by the Egyptians was over because, the Israelites were free no longer in bondage to Pharoah. God had freed His people.

It is very clear from Exodus the Pharoah had intend to engage in war, combat, or open conflict with the Israelites. Which would have been a true war, or battle between the Israelites and Pharoahs army. However before the Egyptians could attack, God took the first strike and attacked and drowned Pharoahs army.
[/quote]

Holy cow is that flimsy. You really gonna stick with that one? Custer's last stand was a first strike from the indians then?

How about another example Knight? You said that God commanded the Israelites into preemptive wars (plural) Surely you have an example that doesn't include oppressors coming back to recapture their slaves.