Sola Which Scriptura

[KnightofChrist]

The KJV vs. NIV



The reason this is so intriguing should be obvious, one of the two pillers of Protestantism is "scripture alone" yet these two bibles do not agree. If two bibles disagree, which one is wrong, are both wrong? Both claim that you cannot add to or take from the word of the Lord, yet they differ. Why? Which one is right? How much do they differ? Does it affect doctrine? Who changed it? Some of the verses are total opposites, other verses are simply not saying the same thing. I ask all who read these comparisons to pray and ask the Lord to reveal which one is the true word of God.

KJV: “...those things which he hath not seen...." (Col.2:18)

NIV: “...great detail about what he has seen...." (Col.2:18)

KJV: “Israel is an empty vine.” (Hos.10:1)

NIV: “Israel was a spreading vine.” (Hos.10:1)

KJV: “...but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.” (Hos.11:12)

NIV: “...Judah is unruly against God, even against the faithful Holy One.” (Hos.11:12)

KJV: “...thought it not robbery to be equal with God....” (Phil 2:6)

NIV: “...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.” (Phil.2:6)

KJV: “My friends scorn me” (Job 16:20)

NIV: “My intercessor is my friend.” (Job 16:20)

KJV: “Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call” (Psa 20:9)

NIV: “O LORD, save the king! Answer us when we call!” (Psa.20:9)

KJV: “Thy calf, O Samaria, hath cast thee off....” (Hos.8:5)

NIV: “Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria....” (Hos.8:5)

KJV: “...but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.” (Prov.21:28)

NIV: “...and whoever listens to him will be destroyed forever.” (Prov.21:28)

KJV: “The words of a talebearer are as wounds....” (Prov.26:22)

NIV: "The words of a gossip are like choice morsels...." (Prov.26:22)

KJV: “...at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea.” (Isa 9:1)

NIV: “...In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles.” (Isa.9:1)

KJV: “The north wind driveth away rain: so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.” (Prov.25:23)

NIV: “As a north wind brings rain, so a sly tongue brings angry looks.” (Prov.25:23)

KJV: “For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty!” (Zech.9:17)

NIV: “How attractive and beautiful they will be!” (Zech.9:17)

KJV: “Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy.....” (Isa.9:3)

NIV: “You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy....” (Isa.9:3)

KJV: “And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.” (Jer.4:2)

NIV: “and if in a truthful, just and righteous way you swear, `As surely as the LORD lives,' then the nations will be blessed by him and in him they will glory." (Jer.4:2)

KJV: “Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow.” (Jer.51:3)

NIV: “Let not the archer string his bow.” (Jer.51:3)

KJV: “...for it is the land of graven images, and they are mad upon their idols.” (Jer.50:38)

NIV: “For it is a land of idols, idols that will go mad with terror.” (Jer.50:38)

KJV: “So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.” (Isa.59:19)

NIV: “From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory. For he [Who?] will come like a pent-up flood that the breath of the LORD drives along.” (Isa.59:19)

KJV: “Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain.” (Zec.10:1)

NIV: “Ask the LORD for rain in the springtime.” (Zec.10:1)

KJV: “How long will ye imagine mischief against a man? ye shall be slain all of you: as a bowing wall shall ye be, and as a tottering fence.” (Psa 62:3)

NIV: “How long will you assault a man? Would all of you throw him down-- this leaning wall, this tottering fence?” (Psa.62:3)

KJV: “...and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth." (Psa 10:3)

NIV: “...he blesses the greedy and reviles the LORD." (Psa 10:3)

KJV: “His ways are always grievous.” (Psa.10:5)

NIV: “His ways are always prosperous.” (Psa.10:5)

KJV: “The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.” (Prov.26:10)

NIV: “Like an archer who wounds at random is he who hires a fool or any passer-by.” (Prov.26:10)

KJV: “The voice of the LORD maketh the hinds to calve, and discovereth the forests: and in his temple doth every one speak of his glory.” (Psa.29:9)

NIV: “The voice of the LORD twists the oaks and strips the forests bare. And in his temple all cry, ‘Glory!’” (Psa.29:9)

KJV: “...an odious[hateful] woman when she is married.” (Prov.30:23)

NIV: “an unloved woman who is married.” (Prov.30:23)

KJV: “The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him.” (Psa 81:15)

NIV: “Those who hate the LORD would cringe before him.” (Psa 81:15)

KJV: “The spider taketh hold with her hands, and is in kings' palaces.” (Prov.30:28)

NIV: “a lizard can be caught with the hand, yet it is found in kings' palaces.” (Prov.30:28)

KJV: “Moreover they that work in fine flax, and they that weave networks, shall be confounded. And they shall be broken in the purposes thereof, all that make sluices and ponds for fish." (Isa.19:9-10)

NIV: “Those who work with combed flax will despair, the weavers of fine linen will lose hope. The workers in cloth will be dejected, and all the wage earners will be sick at heart." (Isa.19:9-10)

KJV: “Study to shew thyself approved unto God.” (2Tim.2:15)

NIV: “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved.” (2Tim.2:15)

KJV: “...is not he thy father that hath bought thee?” (Deut.32:6)

NIV: “...Is he not your Father, your Creator.” (Deut.32:6)

KJV: “And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.” (Isa.16:5)

NIV: “In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it-- one from the house of David-- one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.” (Isa.16:5)

KJV: “...but wisdom is profitable to direct.” (Ecc.10:10)

NIV: “...skill will bring success.” (Ecc.10:10)

KJV: “Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.” (Isa.66:5)

NIV: “Hear the word of the LORD, you who tremble at his word: "Your brothers who hate you, and exclude you because of my name, have said, `Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy!' Yet they will be put to shame.” (Isa.66:5)

KJV: “As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.” (Hos.9:11)

NIV: “Ephraim's glory will fly away like a bird-- no birth, no pregnancy, no conception." (Hos.9:11)

KJV: “Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.” (Hos.6:3)

NIV: “Let us acknowledge the LORD; let us press on to acknowledge him. As surely as the sun rises, he will appear; he will come to us like the winter rains, like the spring rains that water the earth." (Hos.6:3)

KJV: “...by profaning the covenant of our fathers?" (Mal.2:10)

NIV: “...by breaking faith with one another?" (Mal.2:10)

KJV: “He that tilleth his land shall have plenty of bread: but he that followeth after vain persons shall have poverty enough.” (Prov.28:19)

NIV: “He who works his land will have abundant food, but the one who chases fantasies will have his fill of poverty." (Prov.28:19)

KJV: “...but he that is of a perverse heart shall be despised.” (Prov.12:8)

NIV: “...but men with warped minds are despised.” (Prov.12:8)

KJV: “I hate vain thoughts.” (Psa.119:113)

NIV: “I hate double-minded men.” (Psa.119:113)

KJV: “Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?” (Prov.22:21)

NIV: “Have I not written thirty sayings for you, sayings of counsel and knowledge, teaching you true and reliable words, so that you can give sound answers to him who sent you?" (Prov.22:21)

KJV: “Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats: For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.” (Prov.23:6)

NIV: “Do not eat the food of a stingy man, do not crave his delicacies; for he is the kind of man who is always thinking about the cost. "Eat and drink," he says to you, but his heart is not with you.” (Prov.23:6-7)

KJV: “Mercy and truth preserve the king: and his throne is upholden by mercy.” (Prov.20:28)

NIV: “Love and faithfulness keep a king safe; through love his throne is made secure.” (Prov.20:28)

KJV: “A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment.” (Prov.16:10)

NIV: “The lips of a king speak as an oracle, and his mouth should not betray justice.” (Prov.16:10)

KJV: “Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.” (Psa.119:140)

NIV: “Your promises have been thoroughly tested, and your servant loves them.” (Psa.119:140)

KJV: “In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, and strengthenedst me with strength in my soul.” (Psa.138:3)

NIV: “When I called, you answered me; you made me bold and stouthearted." (Psa.138:3)

KJV: “A gift is as a precious stone in the eyes of him that hath it: whithersoever it turneth, it prospereth.” (Prov.17:8)

NIV: “A bribe is a charm to the one who gives it; wherever he turns, he succeeds.” (Pro.17:8)

KJV: “I gat me men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, as musical instruments, and that of all sorts.” (Ecc.2:8)

NIV: “I acquired men and women singers, and a harem as well--the delights of the heart of man.” (Ecc.2:8)

KJV: “Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.” (Isa.60:5)

NIV: “Then you will look and be radiant, your heart will throb and swell with joy; the wealth on the seas will be brought to you, to you the riches of the nations will come.” (Isa.60:5)

KJV: “For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God.” (2Cor.2:17)

NIV: “Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit.” (2Cor.2:17)

KJV: "geniuses make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour.” (Prov.14:9)

NIV: “geniuses mock at making amends for sin, but goodwill is found among the upright.” (Prov.14:9)

KJV: "The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself." (Prov.14:14)

NIV: "The faithless will be fully repaid for their ways, and the good man rewarded for his." (Prov.14:14)

KJV: “He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” (Dan.3:25)

NIV: “He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods." (Dan.3:25)

KJV: “Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.” (Dan.11:37)

NIV: “He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.” (Dan.11:37)

KJV: “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matt.11:12)

NIV: “From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.” (Matt.11:12)

KJV: “The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.” (Isa.26:7)

NIV: “The path of the righteous is level; O upright One, you make the way of the righteous smooth." (Isa.26:7)

KJV: “He is the tower of salvation for his king: and sheweth mercy to his anointed, unto David, and to his seed for evermore.” (2Sam.22:51)

NIV: “He gives his king great victories; he shows unfailing kindness to his anointed, to David and his descendants forever.” (2Sam.22:51)

The importance of taking away "seed" and putting in "descendents" is critical. Gal.3:16 says: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." By making "seed" plural, they have taken away from prophecy.


[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_85.htm"]http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_85.htm[/url]

[SRMiller]

I'll definitely read through these when I get a chance later today. Perhaps it is best to look at the entire context of the passages, and not just the individual verses, to see if the meaning is actually different. I only have NASB here, as far as scholarly Bibles (meaning not paraphrased), so I'll have to look on Bible Gateway for these. I will say I'm not much of a fan of the NIV, because I don't think they always get the essence right when compared the NASB (the NASB is a very literal translation from the original languages, and helped me a lot when translating Hebrew!). Thanks for putting these up, and I'll post later with my thoughts.

[KnightofChrist]

Well as stated 2Sam.22:51 cannot have the same meaning...

[SRMiller]

Okay, so I've only gone through about half of them, comparing with the NASB, and, when possible, the Hebrew. I used the NASB to compare because it is the most literal translation of the text, though sometimes awkward in wording because it is the most literal. In most cases (I got up to Ps 29:9), the NIV is more to the meaning, with some exceptions. I think the problem is the texts they translated from. The KJV (correct me if I'm wrong here) used the ben Chayyim text for the Hebrew because they didn't like that the BHS has various errors and changes that have been kept as footnotes (which point out the errors and the correct meanings). For the Greek they used the Received Text, which was what was available to them at the time. The NIV & NASB use the BHS for the Hebrew because, in comparing it with the ben Chayyim, the differences are negligible, so I'm told. I only have the BHS. They also used older Greek manuscripts than the translators for the KJV had. They are also a bit more knowledgeable about the texts and do extensive textual criticism before using a text to translate (at least NASB does). So basically the difference is in knowledge of languages as we know more about the languages now, and the discovery of older texts. At least that's what I can find. I'll have to get my old roommate's opinion (she's a Biblical scholar, and taught me a bit, but not everything).

[Seatbelt Blue]

I think the real question to be asked is -- why trust that the KJV is more on the ball than the NIV? Why trust the KJV over the NIV? Whose to say which is the better translation?

[Katholikos]

I wouldn't rely on the KJV as a model of accuracy for comparison. It is one of most error-ridden translations in existence. Here's what the esteemed Protestant translators of the RSV have to say about the KJV:

"Yet the King James Version has [b]grave defects[/b]. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version is based, made it manifest that [b]these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation[/b]" (page xi).

"The King James Version of the New Testament was based upon a Greek text that was [b]marred by mistakes[/b], containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying." (page xiv).

Source: [i]Preface to the Revised Standard Version[/i](bold added)

However, we know that English Protestantism was built upon the KJV, and we have to consider it accordingly. The NIV also has its critics. It is notoriously slanted, according to what I have read about it.

Translation is an art, not a science. Any translation reflects the bias of its translator(s). Some are more obviously biased than others. Only the ORIGINAL autographs of the Sacred Scriptures, in the handwriting of the sacred authors, are the inspired Word of God. And -- we have no originals. They all succumbed to antiquity. All we have are copies made by the Catholic Church. That's an intriguing fact that all Protestants ought to consider.

I LOVE THIS CHURCH.

Jay

Edited January 3, 2007 by Katholikos

[SRMiller]

[quote name='Seatbelt Blue' post='1155204' date='Jan 3 2007, 07:01 PM']
I think the real question to be asked is -- why trust that the KJV is more on the ball than the NIV? Why trust the KJV over the NIV? Whose to say which is the better translation?
[/quote]

Hmm, i guess better depends on what you're looking for. Personally, I want something that is as literal, word for word, as possible. This isn't as readable for some, though. I do tend to trust those that use the earliest manuscripts available, which, from what little I know, the KJV did use the earliest manuscripts they had, but we have earlier ones now. And obviously I want the translators to both have way more knowledge of the languages than I do. But there are definitely more translations out there that could also be examined.

[quote name='Seatbelt Blue' post='1155204' date='Jan 3 2007, 07:01 PM']
I think the real question to be asked is -- why trust that the KJV is more on the ball than the NIV? Why trust the KJV over the NIV? Whose to say which is the better translation?
[/quote]

Hmm, i guess better depends on what you're looking for. Personally, I want something that is as literal, word for word, as possible. This isn't as readable for some, though. I do tend to trust those that use the earliest manuscripts available, which, from what little I know, the KJV did use the earliest manuscripts they had, but we have earlier ones now. And obviously I want the translators to both have way more knowledge of the languages than I do. But there are definitely more translations out there that could also be examined.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1155253' date='Jan 3 2007, 03:22 PM']

I LOVE THIS CHURCH.

Jay
[/quote]


You rock.

[thessalonian]

Sola any English Bible has problems. It is simple fact that going from one language to another meaning is lost. It doesn't neccessarily mean that errors are introduced but ambiguity and loss of meaning are inevitable in a translation. For instance there are several words in greek for love. One is like "I love pizza", another "I love my friend", "I love my wife", a deep abiding love. Three very different uses of the word. In greek there is a word for each. For instance the last two, friend, and lover, phileo and agape. These two forms are used in John 20 when Jesus says "do you agape me". Peter replies "Lord you know I phileo you". Most certainly you would agree that meaning has been lost in the translation when love is used for both. There are many other examples.

Now in Catholicism this is not so much a problem because we pass along the word of God by oral and written transmission. If the written is missing something the oral can make up for it. But in Protestantism it is problematic because of sola scriptura. It is quite apparent that the scripture cannot be sola when some of the meaning has been left behind. One has to have a Greek and Hebrew version to have sola scriptura.

[SRMiller]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1155356' date='Jan 3 2007, 10:58 PM']
Sola any English Bible has problems. It is simple fact that going from one language to another meaning is lost. It doesn't neccessarily mean that errors are introduced but ambiguity and loss of meaning are inevitable in a translation. For instance there are several words in greek for love. One is like "I love pizza", another "I love my friend", "I love my wife", a deep abiding love. Three very different uses of the word. In greek there is a word for each. For instance the last two, friend, and lover, phileo and agape. These two forms are used in John 20 when Jesus says "do you agape me". Peter replies "Lord you know I phileo you". Most certainly you would agree that meaning has been lost in the translation when love is used for both. There are many other examples.

Now in Catholicism this is not so much a problem because we pass along the word of God by oral and written transmission. If the written is missing something the oral can make up for it. But in Protestantism it is problematic because of sola scriptura. It is quite apparent that the scripture cannot be sola when some of the meaning has been left behind. One has to have a Greek and Hebrew version to have sola scriptura.
[/quote]

And this is why I wish I knew Greek. I can most of the Old Testament, though the Hebrew poetry is sometimes hard to read. I really like it in Genesis, when it literally says, "To begin with, God created the Heavens and the Earth.", not "In the beginning." Same basic meaning, yes, but I like it this way. I also like being able to tell which word for "Lord" or "God" is being used.