Is There Really A Trinity?

[FullTruth]

Here I am again, stirring up some thought provoking things.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are offices and titles of the One-true-living God, the God of Israel. Just as I am a Friend, Journalist, Student, Ex-Employee, Brother, Son, Nephew, Sinner, and many other titles, but I am one person.

1.) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1, Jewish Publication Society Bible. - Because God is the only one who can create something out of nothing, then God is the Father, which is an office and title of God.

2.) I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake; and thy sins I will not remember.
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 43:11, 25, Jewish Publication Society Bible.

If there is only one who can forgive sins and only one that can be a saviour, only God can be the son, which is an office and title of God.

3.) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. God is also the Holy Ghost, which is an office and title of the one God.

The Christ, the Son is an office of God, the God of Israel! There is no other way around it. There is no other savior beside the God of Israel, God's word precludes it. So if there is a independent Son who is co-eternal, than God's word is a lie! There is no other Saviour, except the God of Israel, who uses the office and title of the Son, the Christ, to become the savior of all mankind.

Another thing becomes impossible if you believe in the Trinity.

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Acts 17:28.

Which would contradict this scripture.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17.

Why would these contradict each other if you believe in the Trinity.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20.

So, whatever I can observe from the creation will declare God.

Science has observed something that really puts a hamper on the Trinity. No two objects in this universe can occupy the same space!

So how can I live and move and have my being in God the Father, and [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consist"]consist[/url] (to be comprised or contained is one of the definitions) in the Christ, if they are two distinct Persons. I can't exist in three Gods? I can only exist in One God, who is a spirit, which dwelt in a body redeeming all man kind onto himself. There is only one God, one Lord, one Baptism, one Faith, and he revealed his name unto us, the name of Jesus Christ.

Any Religion who doesn't teach that is blind in their sins! They preach a Lie that the apostles never taught. Anybody who preaches another gospel which is different than the non-divisible (let me say that again - the non-divisible, meaning just one - not three - one) God of Israel who creates us, is our savior, and lives in us as the Holy Ghost is accursed.

Acts 2:38 is the only way to salvation. Does your faith baptize in Jesus' name? If not, you might want to go to a different church, because the name of the Christ is the only name in which someone must be saved!

Don't be baptized in the Titles of the non-divisible God, be baptized in the only name in heaven and earth in which a man must be saved!

[goldenchild17]

So when Christ talks about His "Father in heaven" He's really referring to Himself? Interesting...

[MrsFrozen]

The word "trinity" is never in the Bible. However, the Trinity is spoken of and alluded to several times.

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. --Matthew 28:19

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. --2 Corinthians 13:14

To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood --1 Peter 1:1-2

Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased." --Luke 3:21-22

[Guest JeffCR07]

Nearly all of your objections rest on the mistaken philosophical presumption that "essence" and "person" are one. They are not. "Essence" refers to [i]what[/i] something is, while "Person" refers to [i]who[/i] something is. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are are all of the same essence ([i]what[/i] they are is the same: God) but they are different persons ([i]who[/i] they are is different).

You seem to think "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" are titles and thus the quivalent of the titles "Wonder-Counselor" and "God-Hero" of Isaiah 9:5. I think they are names given to persons. We seem to be stuck with a difference of interpretation, so the question comes down to who has the authority to rightly interpret scripture. My vote goes with the Church, which provides a continuous, unbroken link of succession all the way back to the apostles, the authority of which was almost universally recognized for more than a thousand years, and which is testified to in Scripture itself.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1155072' date='Jan 3 2007, 01:48 AM']
So when Christ talks about His "Father in heaven" He's really referring to Himself? Interesting...
[/quote]

The Christ was a human being, flesh and blood, begotten, had a beginning, middle and end. The spirit indwelling the Christ was God, who was redeeming the world onto himself.

One spirit, who is God, and one body he dwelt in.

So the human part of Jesus could pray, Our father who art in heaven.

However, whenever Jesus said, your sins are forgiven, it was not the human, flesh and blood part of the Christ saying that, it was the spirit speaking through him.

The Son, by all accounts, is not Co-Eternal, and Co-Equal with God. The Son had a beginning in time, which meant the Son can't be Eternal, because Eternal means it existed outside of time, and was before time and will exist after time. The Son was begotten, therefore the Son is not co-eternal, because the Son was created. What was eternal about the Son was the spirit, because the spirit existed before time and was not created.


[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1155136' date='Jan 3 2007, 10:57 AM']
Nearly all of your objections rest on the mistaken philosophical presumption that "essence" and "person" are one. They are not. "Essence" refers to [i]what[/i] something is, while "Person" refers to [i]who[/i] something is. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are are all of the same essence ([i]what[/i] they are is the same: God) but they are different persons ([i]who[/i] they are is different).

You seem to think "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" are titles and thus the quivalent of the titles "Wonder-Counselor" and "God-Hero" of Isaiah 9:5. I think they are names given to persons. We seem to be stuck with a difference of interpretation, so the question comes down to who has the authority to rightly interpret scripture. My vote goes with the Church, which provides a continuous, unbroken link of succession all the way back to the apostles, the authority of which was almost universally recognized for more than a thousand years, and which is testified to in Scripture itself.
[/quote]

So what you are saying is that we have one God with three personalities? Hmmm, multiple personality Scitzophrenic God. I wonder how God would feel if you called him that.

The Holy Spirit isn't a person either. The Holy Spirit is the Father, because the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and conceived the Begotten, temporal, Son. So how is the Holy Spirit not the Father?

By the way, I don't mind being considered wrong. God reveals himself to the foolish to confound the wise. Since 95 per cent or more of the Christian Community believes in the trinity, it would be foolish not to believe, but God revealed himself to me, and it confounds all of you that I would say such.

The Apostles only baptized in Jesus Name. Acts 2:38, Acts 8:16, Acts 19:5.

Why did the Apostles only baptize in the name of the Lord Jesus, or in the name of Jesus Christ?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19)

Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46-47)

In both these scriptures, I checked name in the greek.

This is what it means

onoma
on'-om-ah
From a presumed derivative of the base of G1097 (compare G3685); a "name" (literally or figuratively), ([b]authority[/b], character): - called, (+ sur-) name (-d).

So there is repentance and remissions of sins in the authority of the Christ. There is baptism in the authority of the Christ.

Back when King Henry was King, he sent messangers to different communities and colonies of England, and these messangers would give degrees in the name of King Henry.

It is important to give the name of the King in authority when doing this, because a foreign nation doesn't have to obey the commands of a foreign king.

So there is one authority in the new testament over sin. There is the authority of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 28:19).
There is also the authority of the name of Christ for the repentance and the remissions of sins.(Luke 24:46-47).

On the day of Pentecost, Peter declared the name of the King.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ (Yeshua is his Hebrew name, and I actually like using that name more than Jesus Christ, seems more real using his real name) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So Yeshua is the name of the King who has dominion over sin.

Since God is the only one who can forgive sins -

I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake; and thy sins I will not remember.
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 43:11, 25, Jewish Publication Society Bible.

Only God can forgive sins. Yeshua came in the name of the Father, and had authority on the Earth to forgive sins. Therefore, if God is the only one who can forgive sins and Yeshua came in the authority of the name of the Father and forgave sins on the Earth, then the name of the God of Israel is the name of Yeshua.

Can this be confirmed in scripture?

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43.

So I know who my king is. It is Yeshua, Jesus Christ. He is one king over all mankind and over sin, and I shall praise him for his loving kindness that he would save a man who has broken all 10 commandments and I deserve nothing less and nothing more than to burn in the deepest pit of Hell forever!

So there is one undivisible Spirit, the name the Spirit gave to us to have authority over Sin and Creation, and the Begotten, Temporal body that the Spirit dwelt in. There is nothing more, and nothing less than one essence, and only one Person - Yeshua, who gave us his name onto humanity so that we could have the authority for the remission of sins and authority over the creation, bringing us back to our initial state in the Garden.

Edited January 3, 2007 by FullTruth

[Starets]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1155071' date='Jan 3 2007, 01:46 AM']
Here I am again, stirring up some thought provoking things.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are offices and titles of the One-true-living God, the God of Israel. Just as I am a Friend, Journalist, Student, Ex-Employee, Brother, Son, Nephew, Sinner, and many other titles, but I am one person.


[/quote]

That sounds like Modalism to me, which was rejected as a heresy generations ago. God is three persons in one God.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1155071' date='Jan 3 2007, 01:46 AM']
Here I am again, stirring up some thought provoking things.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are offices and titles of the One-true-living God, the God of Israel. Just as I am a Friend, Journalist, Student, Ex-Employee, Brother, Son, Nephew, Sinner, and many other titles, but I am one person.[/quote]This was thought-provoking in the 2nd and 3rd century. This error was called [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism"]Sabellianism[/url], or Modalist Monarchians. Today, I guess you'd call it Oneness Pentacostalism, a religion invented by men in the 20th century ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostal#History"]link[/url]).

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1155071' date='Jan 3 2007, 01:46 AM']Acts 2:38 is the only way to salvation. Does your faith baptize in Jesus' name? If not, you might want to go to a different church, because the name of the Christ is the only name in which someone must be saved!

Don't be baptized in the Titles of the non-divisible God, be baptized in the only name in heaven and earth in which a man must be saved![/quote]We could just look at Our Lord's own words in the Gospel of Saint Matthew:[quote name='Matt 28:18-20']Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." [/quote]I would more readily believe in Our Lord's own words, rather than mis-interpret a quote from Saint Peter. Do you believe that Jesus himself taught incorrectly when He commanded His disciples to Baptize by invoking the name of the Trinity?

I'll let St. Thomas Aquinas answer a little more fully:

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#6"]Whether Baptism can be conferred in the name of Christ? (link)[/url]

Also, here's a link that discusses the use historic use of Trinitarian Baptism in the Early Church: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinitarian_Baptism.asp"]link[/url].



PS: FullTruth, I keep finding your quotes on MySpace. Are you just copy-and-pasting?

[Starets]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1155163' date='Jan 3 2007, 12:46 PM']
This was thought-provoking in the 2nd and 3rd century. This error was called [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism"]Sabellianism[/url], or Modalist Monarchians. Today, I guess you'd call it Oneness Pentacostalism, a religion invented by men in the 20th century ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostal#History"]link[/url]).

[/quote]

Thank you for confirming my suspicions, Mateo er Feo.

[Katholikos]

Unless Sacred Scripture is read in the context in which it was written, in the heart of the teaching Church to which God revealed Himself as a Trinity, misunderstandings will occur.
Parsing Scripture without the guidance of the Church invariably leads to heresy. The NT was written by the Church, and she is its only rightful interpreter.

The teaching of the Church serves as a kind of template which overlays the Scriptures and tells us what they mean. The Church is author of the NT, and the guardian and protector of the Bible.

The Church didn't come out of the Bible[b];[/b] the Bible came out of the Church. The Catholic Church is almost 400 years older than the Bible.

God is a Trinity.

Jay

-----------------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1155163' date='Jan 3 2007, 12:46 PM']
This was thought-provoking in the 2nd and 3rd century. This error was called [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism"]Sabellianism[/url], or Modalist Monarchians. Today, I guess you'd call it Oneness Pentacostalism, a religion invented by men in the 20th century ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostal#History"]link[/url]).

We could just look at Our Lord's own words in the Gospel of Saint Matthew:I would more readily believe in Our Lord's own words, rather than mis-interpret a quote from Saint Peter. Do you believe that Jesus himself taught incorrectly when He commanded His disciples to Baptize by invoking the name of the Trinity?

I'll let St. Thomas Aquinas answer a little more fully:

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#6"]Whether Baptism can be conferred in the name of Christ? (link)[/url]

Also, here's a link that discusses the use historic use of Trinitarian Baptism in the Early Church: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinitarian_Baptism.asp"]link[/url].
PS: FullTruth, I keep finding your quotes on MySpace. Are you just copy-and-pasting?
[/quote]
That's mine myspace account.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1155071' date='Jan 3 2007, 01:46 AM']
1.) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1, Jewish Publication Society Bible. - Because God is the only one who can create something out of nothing, then God is the Father, which is an office and title of God.
[/quote]

Go back to Genesis 1:1-3 and tell me if you can't find the Trinity hinted at there. Two persons of the Trinity are directly represented and the third is symbolized in the first act of Creation. Reading the parallel in John 1 should make it even clearer.

[Paladin]

Ah, Arianism. Some heresies never die.

The Bible also never explicitly condemns abortion or mass murder. You have to rely on Sacred Tradition, not literalist skimming of select sacred passages.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1155154' date='Jan 3 2007, 11:11 AM']
The Christ was a human being, flesh and blood, begotten, had a beginning, middle and end. The spirit indwelling the Christ was God, who was redeeming the world onto himself.[/quote]
An anti-Trinitarian AND a Nestorian...interesting.

So you set out to prove that God is really one Person manifesting Himself different ways? That's the modalist heresy. The problem with it is that God clearly revealed Himself as a plurality in union. You can explain away all the verses about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with modalism, but you can't explain away that God refers to Himself as "We" in Genesis. That necessarily means that God is not one Person. Further, for arguments from fittingness, it makes no sense that God would command us to baptize in the Name (singular) of three "roles." Why not mention His other roles? Why use the word "name" instead of the word "title"?

Christ Himself disproves modalism. He says that His testimony is worthless if He testifies to Himself, but that the Father testifies to Him. His meaning is that a person cannot attest to his own greatness. If the Father and Son are the same person, then how would the Father's testimony be worth anything?

Your argument is interesting, but ultimately arises from a failure to understand the Trinity. That's okay...we're not supposed to understand the Trinity. We need only understand a few distinctions: Trinity and Unity are not contradictory because Person and Being are not the same thing...if we said that God was one Person and three Persons or one Being and three Beings, there would be a contradiction.

God bless,

Micah

[White Knight]

Its pretty Clear in Genesis that The Trinity is mentioned, and even through out the first five books of the old testment, it clearly says God is One, once you get into the New Testment, theres all the more signs pointing to "The Blessed Holy Trinity." anyone who doesn't see that as obviously well then thats unfortunate.

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture go hand and hand, and both point to the Trinity.

Edited January 3, 2007 by White Knight

[FullTruth]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1155263' date='Jan 3 2007, 03:31 PM']
Go back to Genesis 1:1-3 and tell me if you can't find the Trinity hinted at there. Two persons of the Trinity are directly represented and the third is symbolized in the first act of Creation. Reading the parallel in John 1 should make it even clearer.
[/quote]

Check the Hebrew on Genesis 1:2.


Spirit means

H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Nowhere does it say the spirit is a person, but it says it is life, which goes a long way to say the Holy Spirit is God's breath, not a distinct person of God, but the breath of God. That is why he breathed on us, and we became living souls.

Saying that the Holy Spirit is a different person that God is like saying the air I breath out is a different person than I am? It's not a person at all!