Concerning Sola Scriptura

[Anna]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 29 2004, 01:30 PM'] It is precisely in the Reformation that He has safeguarded His Bride from error, and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against her in the sure doctrines of the Reformation. [/quote]
Which sure doctrines would that be? The five solas? And which denominations possess the fullness of Truth, thereby safeguarding the Bride of Christ, and all five doctrines, if I might ask.

The Reformers have done a marvelous job of splintering the Church which Christ instituted. How many denominations are there now? And how many of them adhere to all five of the scholas?

[i][b][u]Who[/u][/b][/i] is safeguarding the Bride of Christ?

The Catholic Church has not failed Christ, nor His Bride.
The Catholic Church [i][b]is[/b][/i] the Bride of Christ, and all man-made protestant denominations are imposters and their five man-made solas ~ all contrived in the minds of mere men.

Christ founded One Church, His Bride. She still stands today; and She hasn't been handed over to any new handlers.

You sound as though you've been brainwashed, ICHTHUS.

[William Putnam]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 29 2004, 03:19 PM']You should disregard everyone outside the classical Reformation traditions (who, by the way, all present very consistent views of what [i]Sola Scriptura[/i] is.) They (non-Reformed Christians who call themselves "Protestants") are not Protestants, for they reject the Reformed faith. They are, rather, people who have compromised and now have some sad mix of the true Reformed Faith, Arminianism, and Romanism.[/quote]
And you raise another issue that confuses me; who is to be properly called "Protestant" and who are not.

For this rank amateur of a Catholic, I consider all non-Catholic Christians, not including the Orthodox, as "Protestant" out of pure simplicity, just like I make the "approxumate" definition of Sola Scriptura as Only Scripture is the ultimate source for faith, morals and doctrine." What is a "Reformed faith"? Calvinism?

You will rapidly see why, about 1953, I left the confusion of Protestantism and embraced the only Christian faith around that traces her history and consistant doctrines back to the edge of the Apostolic Era, and to Christ Himself.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

[i]Not riches, but God.
Not honors, but God.
Not distinction, but God.
Not dignities, but God.
Not advancement, but God.
God always and in everything.[/i]

- St. Vincent Pallotti -

[William Putnam]

[quote name='Anna' date='Aug 29 2004, 06:09 PM']Which sure doctrines would that be?  The five solas?  And which denominations possess the fullness of Truth, thereby safeguarding the Bride of Christ, and all five doctrines, if I might ask.

The Reformers have done a marvelous job of splintering the Church which Christ instituted. How many denominations are there now?  And how many of them adhere to all five of the scholas? 

[i][b][u]Who[/u][/b][/i] is safeguarding the Bride of Christ?

The Catholic Church has not failed Christ, nor His Bride. 
The Catholic Church [i][b]is[/b][/i] the Bride of Christ, and all man-made protestant denominations are imposters and their five man-made solas ~ all contrived in the minds of mere men. 

Christ founded One Church, His Bride.  She still stands today; and She hasn't been handed over to any new handlers. 

You sound as though you've been brainwashed, ICHTHUS.  [/quote]
BRAVO Anne!

I wonder if ICTHUS has ever wondered why, if it was indeed the "Reformation" that brought thte Chruch "back in line" as he claims, that Christ would allow His Church to wallow in error for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

And he thinks the the so called "Protestant Reformation" is the holy Spirit in action? Why, if now we have in the wallow of Protestantism, such a confusion of doctrine - Baptism saves/Baptims is only symbolic; The Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ/it is only symbolic of Christ; John 20:22-23 is essentially discarded, the Sacrament of Reconsiliation is bogus to them......I could go on and on and on into the sea of confusion that Protestantism has wrought!

Or is God the "God of Confusion"?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



[i]Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.[/i]
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

[Anna]

Well, according to ICHTHUS, the Bride of Christ wasn't in error the entire 1500 years until the Reformation, only about 200 years. Then, She slipped and tore her wedding gown, apparently in Janet Jackson fashion, and Martin Luther and John Calvin quickly sewed up the bodice, thus sparing Her any further embarassment. Of course, this is all a bunch of baloney.
The Bride of Christ is as spotless and without blemish today as she was on Pentecost, and will be when Christ returns.
The faithful may be sinful, the clergy may be corrupt, but the Church remains True to the Teachings of Christ, the Bridegroom.
Forever and ever, Amen.

[William Putnam]

[quote name='Anna' date='Aug 29 2004, 07:30 PM']Well, according to ICHTHUS, the Bride of Christ wasn't in error the entire 1500 years until the Reformation, only about 200 years.  Then, She slipped and tore her wedding gown, apparently in Janet Jackson fashion, and Martin Luther and John Calvin quickly sewed up the bodice, thus sparing Her any further embarassment.  Of course, this is all a bunch of baloney.
The Bride of Christ is as spotless and without blemish today as she was on Pentecost, and will be when Christ returns.
The faithful may be sinful, the clergy may be corrupt, but the Church remains True to the Teachings of Christ, the Bridegroom.
Forever and ever, Amen.[/quote]
ROTFLOL!!!!!

And on your last paragraph, I could not agree more!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



[i]Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.[/i]

- St. Therese of Avila -

[Anna]

It is completely faulty logic and pure human arrogance to think for one moment that Jesus Christ founded a Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, and that [b]that[/b] Church (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit!) fell into error and had to be rescued by a band of human Reformers.

The Holy Spirit failed to keep Christ's Bride spotless, so Luther, Calvin, Knox, and the gang had to step in and make things right again. Oh please. Do you have any idea how utterly pompous that sounds?!!!

Some of these self-promoting men had the audacity to change the Bible to their own liking ~ editing out seven books entirely ~ and then come up with a doctrine called "Sola Scriptura" declaring the Bible alone as the source of authority God left to the Church. (Only the "Scriptura" [i][b]they[/b][/i] approved of, btw!)

Funny, but not even the Bible supports Sola Scriptura! It says that the pillar and foundation of the Truth is...[i][b]The Church[/b][/i]!

The Catholic Church canonized the Scriptures over 1,000 years before the first Reformers were ever born.
The first bishops learned from the lips of Christ Jesus.
The promises made to the Church were given to the Apostles, and passed down to their successors.

The Reformers were a bunch of puffed-up dissidents (heretics, actually) who've led countless generations astray, and who continue to do so.

The Church is incapable of error, yesterday, today, and always, precisely because, regardless of the sinfulness, idiocy, and arrogance of the men within Her, the Catholic Church which was founded by Christ [i]is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit[/i]. Always was, always will be.

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 29 2004, 01:30 PM'] Actually, the Catholic Church did not get into really hot water doctrinally until a couple of centuries before the Reformation.

[/quote]
This is because, for the first time ever in all time, the Holy Spirit pulled a double Rip Van Winkle, fell asleep for 200 years, and let Christ's Bride go to hell in a handbasket... -_-

Thank heavens for those marvelous Reformers, who did what the Holy Spirit couldn't ~ safeguard the Bride of Christ!

[MorphRC]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 30 2004, 06:46 AM'] No, I'm not saying that at all! I'm rather [i]denying[/i] that Hell prevailed against the Church. The Church was reformed from the errors of her past, and the torn wedding gown was mended. [/quote]
Christ said He had ONE Church, and that, that ONE Church would not become subject to hell and hell would not prevail over it. What your saying is. The CC was the true Church up until 13-14th centuries, then somehow turned the wrong directions, having bad doctrines, beliefs and rituals, and hell did prevail over it for 300 years, but then Christ decided to fix it, with the reformation, that countered everything He set before.

The Church was the Catholic Church, what other Church?

[Anna]

The Truth is, Christ established an [i][b]authority[/b][/i] on earth.

The Reformers, while highly intelligent men and having a certain love for God, perverted that love by creating in their own minds what they thought was the Will of God. Well intentioned, perhaps. But they were not commissioned by God ~ no way, no how. And since their definitions didn't fit the doctrines laid down by Christ's authority, and since they were too prideful to submit to that authority, there was only one route they could take: break away and start their own churches. And this, they did.

Prove, [i]using the Bible[/i], that the Church Christ established was going to take a tumble, fall into error, and need to be rescued by men.

There goes that theory, or else there goes Sola Scriptura...they both can't be right. (And in fact, neither of them is.)

Furthermore, if the Bible was canonized by the Catholic Church in the 4th century, and was edited by the Reformers in the 16th century, doesn't that mean, then, that the Catholic Church was in error for 12 centuries, not two?

Pax Christi. <><

[William Putnam]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 30 2004, 01:09 AM']Christ said He had ONE Church, and that, that ONE Church would not become subject to hell and hell would not prevail over it. What your saying is. The CC was the true Church up until 13-14th centuries, then somehow turned the wrong directions, having bad doctrines, beliefs and rituals, and hell did prevail over it for 300 years, but then Christ decided to fix it, with the reformation, that countered everything He set before.

The Church was the Catholic Church, what other Church?[/quote]
What other Church?

I have been trying to get a good answer out of Protestants for years on that question, when all we see is ONE Church from Pentecost until the 16th century with the so called "Protestant Reformation" (except, of course, the Orthodox schism which occurred circa A.D. 1000.)

Where was the "True Church" of Christ for the first 1500 years of church history? A reading of the early church fathers gives a vital clue as to what Church that was, first given the additional title of "Universal" ("Anglicized from the Greek, the word is CATHOLIC) by one St. Ignatius of Antioch in circa A.D. 100.

Constantine, the "darling of Protestants" in wistful thinking, could not have "founded" the Catholic Church, as is often claimed!

He was not even conceived yet in A.D. 100!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


[i]I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.[/i]

- [b]The Apostles Creed[/b] -

[p0lar_bear]

ICTHUS,

If you claim that the Church did not err doctrinally until a couple hundred years before the Reformation, why do you not believe the things the Church held before that time?

The Orthodox maintain belief in the Real Presence, Sacramental Confession, the necessity of Baptism, the hierarchical structure of the Church (though denying the supremecy of Peter), etc. Since they broke off in 1000 AD, then that would be before the Church got into "hot water."

The fact is, you can't find anyone believing what you believe prior to the 1500s.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='William Putnam' date='Aug 31 2004, 01:53 AM'] What other Church?

I have been trying to get a good answer out of Protestants for years on that question, when all we see is ONE Church from Pentecost until the 16th century with the so called "Protestant Reformation" (except, of course, the Orthodox schism which occurred circa A.D. 1000.)

Where was the "True Church" of Christ for the first 1500 years of church history? A reading of the early church fathers gives a vital clue as to what Church that was, first given the additional title of "Universal" ("Anglicized from the Greek, the word is CATHOLIC) by one St. Ignatius of Antioch in circa A.D. 100.

Constantine, the "darling of Protestants" in wistful thinking, could not have "founded" the Catholic Church, as is often claimed!

He was not even conceived yet in A.D. 100!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


[i]I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.[/i]

- [b]The Apostles Creed[/b] - [/quote]
I know! its a church that has no walls, but it still has authority of all believers, even though you cant see the head of it. Its up the creek!

[ICTHUS]

[quote]The Orthodox maintain belief in the Real Presence,[/quote] I believe in Real Presence as well. I never said I didn't. I'm not a Zwinglian. [quote]the necessity of Baptism,[/quote] Baptism is necessary, though not necessarily the way you think. I'm undecided as to whether it's regenerative or not. [quote]the hierarchical structure of the Church (though denying the supremecy of Peter),[/quote] I maintain the hierarchial structure of the Church, which is why I probably won't be any other denomination other than Lutheran or Anglican (I've already found a Lutheran church that I like verymuchso)

[ICTHUS]

Christ didn't promise that no error at all would creep in, He just said that it wouldn't prevail, by the way. That error didn't become such that it perverted the Gospel until shortly before the Reformation.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 31 2004, 12:11 PM'] Christ didn't promise that no error at all would creep in, He just said that it wouldn't prevail, by the way. That error didn't become such that it perverted the Gospel until shortly before the Reformation. [/quote]
You said 300 years previous to the reformation bad doctrines were brought in. So therefore hell did prevail. For 300yrs.