The Carmelites & The Poor Clares

[Chiquitunga]

The spirit of Carmel is definitely one of silence and solitude, but one thing I often wonder is: how is the Poor Clare life less silence and solitude than the Carmelites, if they do have less community recreation?

The Discalced Carmelite Nuns always have 2 hours of recreation daily, 1 after lunch, and 1 after supper in the evening. But the Poor Clares generally only have 1 hour of community recreation daily. So this rather confuses me at times.

I once thought to myself, maybe the Discalced Carmelites once had less recreation, and it was changed to 2 hours. But here is a quote from the book, [i]He is My Heaven[/i], about Bl. Elizabeth of the Trinity, by Jennifer Moorcroft:

[quote]
The Carmelite life to which Elizabeth was now introduced was a harmonious balance of liturgical and private prayer, work, and recreation ... There were 2 meals a day, at 10:15 AM and 6:05 PM, and 2 recreation periods after the morning and evening meals.[/quote]

Then I thought, well it is true however, that even if the Carmelites have more recreation, during other periods of the day, solitude in one's cell or where ever one is working, is very important to them. I remember St. Teresa wrote that she did not want a big general work room, but rather that her nuns would remain in their cells working on something alone, but if they are working in the house, to try to keep each nun in solitude.

But still, I think the Poor Clare life is pretty similar. But in a booklet I have of the Poor Clares in Rockford it says:

[quote]Community

"The Lord gave me sisters" -St. Clare

Differering from the Carmelites, whose emphasis is on solitude, fraternal life is a dominant feature of Franciscan life. Living a common life style, we are united in striving for a single ideal. Living with others, especially in closed quarters, is demanding. Christ is the center of our lives, and by keeping our eyes on Him, the continual self-denial that living together demands, becomes possible. By participating in the community exercises such as recreation, coming together for communal prayer and meals, sharing the work, we strengthen the bond between us, and support each other in our servcie to Him. ...[/quote]

The Discalced Carmelites however, would really say the same. Community and a family spirit is very important to them. I often think that a lot of people don't realize that the Carmelites have 2 hours of recreation daily.

I really love both of these Orders. And also, I love talking with people, actually. I talk so much at times, often people wonder why I think I'm called to an order like the Carthusians or Srs of Bethlehem. :j But even for them, community is very important. Their silence is another way for them to exercise sisterly charity. Then they have community recreation once a week.

But anyway, my original topic was, the Discalced Carmelites and the Poor Clares, and how do they differ as far as silence and solitude. Of course I'm not mentioning the many many other cloistered orders, simply because these are 2 that I think are most commonly thought of these days, when people mention cloistered nuns.

I know there are definitely differences like, the Poor Clares have much more Eucharistic adoration. But I'm wondering about silence and solitude here. I guess in the end it depends on each particular community.

But do you guys have any thoughts on this?

Edited January 1, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[HisChild]

Well, having been in an active Carmelite community as an aspirant and having discerned with another one. . .and then having entered the PCPA, I would have to say that the solitude is more pronounced with the Carmelites in that there is more cell time. There are a few instances where, in the PCPA, it was frowned upon that one return to her cell during the day, other than for a brief moment.

I'm not sure what you mean regarding the 2 hour recreation time in community. The one after lunch was always 'solo' (although sometimes part of lunch WAS recreation as we spoke at meal) and the one after dinner was in community in both Carmelite places mentioned above.

While I yearn for Adoration, as in PCPA, I also know that we still adore our Lord, even if He is not exposed, and that was always emphasized during my discernment.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='HisChild' post='1153211' date='Dec 31 2006, 10:46 PM']
Well, having been in an active Carmelite community as an aspirant and having discerned with another one. . .and then having entered the PCPA, I would have to say that the solitude is more pronounced with the Carmelites in that there is more cell time. There are a few instances where, in the PCPA, it was frowned upon that one return to her cell during the day, other than for a brief moment.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply! Ah, that is interesting about the differences, that in your experience it's the cell time in solitude that is different ...

[quote]I'm not sure what you mean regarding the 2 hour recreation time in community. The one after lunch was always 'solo' (although sometimes part of lunch WAS recreation as we spoke at meal) and the one after dinner was in community in both Carmelite places mentioned above.[/quote]

In the cloistered Discalced Carmelites there is a period of 1 hour after Lunch, where the nuns gather together, while doing some work most times, to talk and be together. Then after supper, it is the same, for 1 hour.

In my brief experience with the OCDs in Buffalo, often the recreations were separate for the novices and postulants, and the professed, though a few times we were all together. Then on Feastdays, the sisters can all talk together at meals.

[quote]While I yearn for Adoration, as in PCPA, I also know that we still adore our Lord, even if He is not exposed, and that was always emphasized during my discernment.[/quote] Yeah, that's right. I've thought in the same way too, since we can adore the Blessed Trinity in our souls. I've thought of this comparing the Poor Clares and Carmelites, but also the Srs of Bethlehem, who have the Bl. Sacrament in their hermitages, and the Carthusian Nuns, who do not.

It's really a great insight what you had to say concerning the difference the Carmelites give to solitude in the cell, than the Poor Clares. Thank you!

Edited January 1, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[HisChild]

I think, however, the solitude in the life of the Srs of Bethlehem is what attracts me so much to them. . .as well as a Carmelite hermit community in WI. Although I LOVE to chat as much as the next one. . .I crave that solitude, and one recreation a week is more than enough, I think.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='HisChild' post='1153211' date='Dec 31 2006, 10:46 PM'] I'm not sure what you mean regarding the 2 hour recreation time in community. The one after lunch was always 'solo' (although sometimes part of lunch WAS recreation as we spoke at meal) and the one after dinner was in community in both Carmelite places mentioned above.
[/quote]

That is interesting how the active Carmelite community you were with, had a recreation in 'solo' after Lunch and one in community in the evening. That's very nice. Yeah, I'm sure though that the cloistered OCDs are together and talk with each other, during both hours of recreation, and Buffalo is a very traditional and strict community.

But still, I'm starting to see more clearly how this recreation is still very much a sort of 'gathering of hermits' as the rest of their life emphasizes solitude much more than the Poor Clares, even though the Poor Clares only have 1 daily recreation period.

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

Dear Margaret Clare et al,
I think there is a difference between PCPA poor Clares and say, PCC Poor Clares. I know that PCC's tend to be more structured about things like recreation. A woman I know that was at the Clevland PCC monastery said that most of the nuns were alone a good part of the day.

Carmelites tend to see themselves as hermits living in community. The times of coming together for recreation are meant to inhance and strengthen their solitude. They strive to work alone, mostly in their cell as much as possible. Most other cloistered communities wouldn't make that as a goal although it maybe something that just happens according to circumstance. In my own monastery except for the kitchen and laundry most sisters do work alone but that isn't deliberate.

Community is more than recreation and everyone being in the same room! Basically, the recreation of the Carthusians and the Monastic Family of Bethlehem is for fraternal sharing and to keep them from going bats. It is one thing to live alone and another thing to live alone within the confines of a restricted area, ie. the cell (no matter if the cell is like a small house!) This is why they have the famous walk! Any coming together by the monks and nuns is to strengthen their life as hermits.

A life of solitude has it's own challenges and pitfalls as does a life that emphasizes community. Even in our life that is highly fraternal many find the times of solitude demanding and at times frightening. One must be ready with God's help to confront the reality of one's self. Solitude isn't necessarily about someone who doesn't like to talk and in fact it's probably healthier for a person who does like to interact with others.

I think almost every active sister looks longingly at the "silence" of cloistered life; at times cloistered nuns look longingly at the life of the carthusian or trappist or hermit and probably hermits at times look longingly at life of an active sister. That's human nature!

In my community we have "optional recreation" after noon dinner although the novitiate sisters for the most part recreate together. The evening recreation is when the community comes together. One night a week is "Free" which means you don't have to show up at recreation. Once a month we have a community retreat day and a personal "hermit" day. We have a community retreat yearly and each sister is free to make a personal retreat. There are several times of a triduum retreat also. Friday nights in Lent we don't have recreation and they are for prayer and/or study.

I think that if I were living a community life that had little recreation I wouldn't mind it but I'd also probably think I was very virtuous...ahem!

[HisChild]

Sr Mary Catherine,

Why would living a life of little recreation cause you to think you were very virtuous? I just never saw it that way at all. . .to me, it's just a nuance of a community that one is attracted to/feels called to, just as one is attracted to, say, chanting the full Divine Office in common, vs. saying it, or how one feels called to a more rigid structure vs one that is more. . .well, less rigid in structure.

Edited January 4, 2007 by hugheyforlife

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Sr. Mary Catharine' post='1153438' date='Jan 1 2007, 09:02 AM']
Dear Margaret Clare et al,
I think there is a difference between PCPA poor Clares and say, PCC Poor Clares. I know that PCC's tend to be more structured about things like recreation. A woman I know that was at the Clevland PCC monastery said that most of the nuns were alone a good part of the day. [/quote]Yeah, I can see how that would be true, and also a lot simply depends on the particular community. Thanks for sharing this about the PCCs, the Poor Clare Colletines. That is what the communities in Chicago, Rockford, and Minooka are, near me. I do like the PCPAs of course, too. I love Mother Angelica and everything about them - though, I can't watch them much, since I don't have cable.[quote]Carmelites tend to see themselves as hermits living in community. The times of coming together for recreation are meant to inhance and strengthen their solitude. They strive to work alone, mostly in their cell as much as possible. Most other cloistered communities wouldn't make that as a goal although it may be something that just happens according to circumstance. In my own monastery except for the kitchen and laundry most sisters do work alone but that isn't deliberate.[/quote]Ah, okay, thanks for the insight. I'm starting to understand this a little better. I just often wondered - how could it be that Carmelites are supposed to be more eremitical than Poor Clares (in general), when they have more time of community recreation? That's my main question in this thread.[quote]Community is more than recreation and everyone being in the same room!
[/quote]Yes, for sure. :j [quote]Basically, the recreation of the Carthusians and the Monastic Family of Bethlehem is for fraternal sharing and to keep them from going bats. It is one thing to live alone and another thing to live alone within the confines of a restricted area, ie. the cell (no matter if the cell is like a small house!) This is why they have the famous walk! Any coming together by the monks and nuns is to strengthen their life as hermits.[/quote] Okay, similar to the recreation of the Carmelites - to strengthen their life as hermits. I really love the Carthusian tradition of the walk, every week. And then once a year, they have a very very long walk for a whole day, usually during the Spring, I think. [quote]A life of solitude has it's own challenges and pitfalls as does a life that emphasizes community. Even in our life that is highly fraternal many find the times of solitude demanding and at times frightening. One must be ready with God's help to confront the reality of one's self. Solitude isn't necessarily about someone who doesn't like to talk and in fact it's probably healthier for a person who does like to interact with others.[/quote]Yeah, I definitely agree with that. This makes me think of the Servant of God, Sr. Consolata, Poor Clare Capuchin, whom Jesus gave the unceasing act of love to - Jesus, Mary, I love you! Save souls! He wanted her to always remain in silence, except out of necessity or charity. But before she entered the monastery, she loved to talk so much, that she was nicknamed "Thunder&Lightening"
And yes, definitely the life of solitude has a huge amount of pitfalls - confronting all your own sins and weaknesses in silence in the presence of God .. And especially controlling one's own thoughts and imagination, aahhh! - that must be the worst!! This also applies for any religious, or anyone striving to live a life of prayer. Yeah, a good period of time for recreation is a good thing, that can really strengthen someone in this ongoing struggle. I don't mean at all to say that recreations are in any way a less virtuous thing or an easier way - no definitely not. Recreations can also be a time of trial in practicing charity. Each Order in providing a time for recreation is different - not that one way is superior to another. [quote]I think almost every active sister looks longingly at the "silence" of cloistered life; at times cloistered nuns look longingly at the life of the carthusian or trappist or hermit and probably hermits at times look longingly at life of an active sister. That's human nature! [/quote]That's a good insight ... You have to go where you're truly called, where it truly is the Lord's will, and not your own ...
[quote]In my community we have "optional recreation" after noon dinner although the novitiate sisters for the most part recreate together. The evening recreation is when the community comes together. One night a week is "Free" which means you don't have to show up at recreation. Once a month we have a community retreat day and a personal "hermit" day. We have a community retreat yearly and each sister is free to make a personal retreat. There are several times of a triduum retreat also. Friday nights in Lent we don't have recreation and they are for prayer and/or study.

I think that if I were living a community life that had little recreation I wouldn't mind it but I'd also probably think I was very virtuous...ahem![/quote] Oh, that would not be good.

[Chiquitunga]

But truly, I don't mean to say here, that communities with daily recreation or active religious are less virtuous than orders like the carthusians .. no, not at all.

Like Mother Teresa, for instance - she was very contemplative ... Each different vocation complements the other. Not that one is harder or superior than the other ..

[HisChild]

You, crack me up. (and you know what I mean! )We are called where we are called. If we have natural leanings towards more silence or more solitude or more interaction within a parish, it's simply the gifts our Lord has give us, you know? We'd all be pretty boring if we were all called to the same place, and had the same desires.

That's why so many saints founded so many different orders, because of the gifts we were given. . .the Church, while one body, has many different parts, none better than the other, but each wonderfully unique: some active, some cloistered, some eremetical, some ascetic, some 'gentle', some penitential, each with their own emphasis, each doing what is necessary for the thing necessary. . .and that is salvation and holiness.

God love you!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='HisChild' post='1153795' date='Jan 1 2007, 04:02 PM']
... God love you!
[/quote]God love you too!

Here's a book I'm reading about an American girl who had a vision of Christ calling her to the desert when she was in college. It's a true story. She first joined a Discalced Carmelite community in America, but left after a short time. She told the Novice Mistress she felt no specific call to Carmel, but to the desert, even literally to the desert. She was even thinking of going to the Holy Land ..

Then she was discerning with the Camaldolese Benedictines in Rome, and went there ... but I won't ruin the story, only that her vocation was formally blessed and recognized by the Holy Father of her time .. I don't remember which one.

It took a duration of [i]11 years[/i] until she finally reached her true calling.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Nazarena-American-Anchoress-Thomas-Matus/dp/0809137925/sr=8-1/qid=1167690625/ref=sr_1_1/105-7159273-7850825?ie=UTF8&s=books"]Nazarena: The Story of an American Anchoress[/url]


[quote name='HisChild' post='1153795' date='Jan 1 2007, 04:02 PM']
You, crack me up. (and you know what I mean! )We are called where we are called. If we have natural leanings towards more silence or more solitude or more interaction within a parish, it's simply the gifts our Lord has give us, you know? We'd all be pretty boring if we were all called to the same place, and had the same desires.

That's why so many saints founded so many different orders, because of the gifts we were given. . .the Church, while one body, has many different parts, none better than the other, but each wonderfully unique: some active, some cloistered, some eremetical, some ascetic, some 'gentle', some penitential, each with their own emphasis, each doing what is necessary for the thing necessary. . .and that is salvation and holiness.
[/quote]

That's a great way to state it! And in the end is going to be the place that will be best for our soul's salvation and that of others.

[HisChild]

How cool is that? I wonder how much she participated in, in their prayer life, etc. I'm not saying that she was a part of their community life, but that would be great, to be on the grounds of a monastery, all the while, being an anchoress for Him alone!

I've added it to my wishlist. Thank you!

[Chiquitunga]

But again, regarding recreation, I did find all the times of recreation at the Carmelites in Buffalo very beneficial. That community is incredibly fervent, and speaking with the other nuns there really helped a lot in different ways. I remember many of the conversations to this day that have helped me. I was there during the time after Easter when they are many feasts, like Pentecost, Holy Trinity Sunday, and Corpus Christi, so there were a few extra times of recreation, like during the community meals.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]In the cloistered Discalced Carmelites there is a period of 1 hour after Lunch, where the nuns gather together, while doing some work most times, to talk and be together. Then after supper, it is the same, for 1 hour.[/quote]

I think this varies from community to community. I've spent some time at Quidenham Carmel, which is a discalced monastery, and the nuns there only have one 'talking' recreation per day. That takes place in the evening. During the afternoon we had an hour's free time to do what we chose, but that had to be undertaken in silence and solitude.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1153663' date='Jan 1 2007, 02:33 PM']Thanks for sharing this about the PCCs, the Poor Clare Colletines. That is what the communities in Chicago, Rockford, and Minooka are, near me. [/quote] Regarding the Poor Clares in Chicago, they used to be in here for a long time on the South Side, but left sometime ago because the neighborhood they were in was getting dangerous and noisy. They went to Roswell, NM. But then a couple years ago, Cardinal Francis George invited them back and a new monastery was built in Lemont, IL. I believe it was about 6 nuns that came, including the well known Sr. Mary Francis, who wrote the book, [i]A Right to be Merry[/i], who recently went to her Heavenly home.

I actually have not visited this monastery yet, but plan to as soon as I can. Here is they are in [url="http://religiouslife.com/vocsearch/search.phtml?view=d&my_id=68&criteria=d"]Roswell, NM[/url], Sr. MF and another sister, and Chicago, [url="http://www.chicagopoorclares.com/"]http://www.chicagopoorclares.com/[/url]




[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1155869' date='Jan 4 2007, 06:22 AM']
I think this varies from community to community. I've spent some time at Quidenham Carmel, which is a discalced monastery, and the nuns there only have one 'talking' recreation per day. That takes place in the evening. During the afternoon we had an hour's free time to do what we chose, but that had to be undertaken in silence and solitude.
[/quote]That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing! I like that idea of having a recreation / free time like that that is spent in silence, after lunch, and then one with the community in the evening ..