Defending Western Culture

[PedroX]

Patrick R.,

Again, I need to ask for clarification. Are you speaking of "pop" culture? Without western culture, there would be no concept of human rights, there would be no concept of equality regardless of race. There would be no free press. There would be little art featuring human forms. I'm fairly certain that you are not against these things, but want to make sure you know what is really meant by the term "Western Culture".

peace...

[PatrickRitaMichael]

  Without western culture, there would be no concept of human rights, there would be no concept of equality regardless of race.  There would be no free press.  There would be little art featuring human forms

Pedro,

I think you mean 'without the Church' there would be no concept of human rights... etc. Those grand philosophical ideas about freedom, equality, and intrinsic worth are borne from the Church. So, whether western culture dies or not, as long as the Church is around, there can be freedom, equality, etc.

(I think you also might want to rethink the statement about little art featuring human forms. There is Indian art that goes back thousands of years featuring human forms.)

I think the way that I think of western culture is different from the way you think of western culture b/c you grew up within it. I grew up inside and out, being raised in an Indian community in the US and so I can honestly say that the only valuable things in Western Culture are influences of God, everything else just exists (it's neutral) and it doesn't matter if "everything else" exists or not. That's just my opinion, anyway.

Long live the Church :D

[M.SIGGA]

I'm just asking, would there be so many of the freedoms we have today without the Church, like if it didn't exist? Most of the writers of democracy, free speech, freedom of religion, suffrage, anti-slavery, etc. were introduced into society by humanists, secularists, and free thinkers. Without these what would the world be like if there was only the Church?

[PatrickRitaMichael]

I'm just asking, would there be so many of the freedoms we have today without the Church, like if it didn't exist? Most of the writers of democracy, free speech, freedom of religion, suffrage, anti-slavery, etc. were introduced into society by humanists, secularists, and free thinkers. Without these what would the world be like if there was only the Church?

But those free thinkers were products of Western Culture, which was influenced by the Church. Without the Church, there would be no freedom. Without Western Culture, I would say freedom could still exist. But that's playing the 'what if' game and since I'm not God, I can't say how the world 'would have been if...'

[PedroX]

Patrick R.

Please note that I said that there would be "little art featuring the human form" Western and Far eastern (asian) art are the two major art movements that featured realistic representation of the human form.

Secondly, many of these freedoms that you would credit the church with are actually older than the church. Please look into ancient Greek and Roman philosophy and literature. After Constatine, yes Western and Catholic Culture became intrinsically linked. You can not separate them, but do not pretend that Western culture did not exist before that.

You would like to paint me as ethnocentric, and I think that frankly thats a pretty cheap card to play. Please reaxamine your disdain for all that is highest about our culture. Please also recognize that while you can not separate Western culture from Catholicism, that does not make them the same thing.

peace...

[M.SIGGA]

But those free thinkers were products of Western Culture, which was influenced by the Church. Without the Church, there would be no freedom. Without Western Culture, I would say freedom could still exist. But that's playing the 'what if' game and since I'm not God, I can't say how the world 'would have been if...'

Democracy grew out of Pagan Antiquity, before the Church. When the pagans converted to the Church, their philosphies were passed on and re-interpreted, but essentially didn't change all that much. Free thinkers and humanists and secularists revived the Classical tradition in opposition to feudalism and the Church, hence the Renaissance (re-birth) and the Neo-Classical period. Progressives in the Church are also responsible.

The Jews followed the Mosiac law and later on the Talmud which opposed the type of democracy that we have in the West. My point is the basic tenets of Western Culture are rooted in paganism, not Judaism, and might still be around today in the West if the Church wasn't around.

Then again there might not be any Western Culture without the Church because the Faith was the only unifying force that kept ideas from the East out.

[PatrickRitaMichael]

Pedro,

I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to paint you as ethnocentric. I don't mean to do so at all! I'M SORRY! I was just trying to explain to you my point of view, as someone who has sort of grown up with another culture. I didn't mean to imply that you thought Western Culture was better than other cultures. I know you don't think that and it didn't even cross my mind that you would. I should have worded my statements better.

I'm not trying to pretend that Western culture is younger than it is. I appreciate (with what little I history background I have) the contributions of Greek and Roman philosophy, but what I mean to say is that the freedoms we love are seen in its fullest extent only with the influence of God. And I was assuming that we were talking about American western culture, specifically, which is why I was saying that God influenced the freedoms we have today, in the US. I am sorry I didn't explain that better, I'm not that great at debating.

I should backtrack, though, and say that when I think of culture, I think of stuff of our everyday lives, like how you greet elders, manners, what is socially acceptable, etc. rather than politial stuff. This is getting too hard to explain exactly what I think culture is and I'm getting confused myself at what I mean, so I'm just gonna stop. But I really hope you'll accept my apology b/c I didn't mean for it to come off sounding offensive at all. I respect your opinion totally and I appreciate your posts.

Edited January 22, 2004 by PatrickRitaMichael

[PatrickRitaMichael]

So whether or not Western culture dies, I could care less. (No offense to anyone!!)

Perhaps this is a better clarification of what I meant and then I'm done. Western culture has already established ideas of democracy and freedom that have been adopted by other countries and have become a part (maybe lesser, but still a part) of those other countries, even though those countries have a different culture. So, if Western culture 'dies' now, those ideals will still be around, within the context of another culture. I'm talking about the present, not criticizing where those ideals came from. Western Culture has given us a great many things, but those things will still exist whether or not Western culture exists in the future. I think our culture has been shaped by those ideals, but is separate from them. For example, that most Westerners eat with a fork, knife, and/or spoon most of the time is part of the culture. If this part of the culture 'dies,' what influence does this have on politics or freedom? That's what I meant, even though I really messed up my explanation. The end.

[PedroX]

Patrick R.

Don't sweat it. Seriously. No harm, no foul.

Its just important to think about these things. One of the reasons that we are living in the twilight of western civilization is that people stopped thinking about these things. We stopped appreciating the pinnacles that we could reach, and settled for the plains. We stopped being humanists, (in the classic, best sense) and be came ego-centric.

I wish you the best, and have thoroughly enjoyed all of your posts. Since you mentioned an Indian heritage, may St. Thomas guide your steps, and may you have his courage.

peace...

[Winchester]

Western Culture is cool! Boots, low slung gun belts, hats, words like "howdy" and "reckon", cattle drives, names lie "Shane" and "McLintlock".

Man I love Western Culture!