Distortions, Falsifications, And Mistranslations

[Katholikos]

This is an excerpt from www.anabaptistchurch.org.

QUOTE
Jesus said, "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to Me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all peoples, [b]immerse them into the nature of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. [/b] Teach them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember that I am with you always." (The Great Commission at the end of the Gospel of Matthew)
END QUOTE (bold added)

I checked nine versions of the Bible, and they all translate "baptize" or "baptizing" -- "in the name of" -- in Mt 28:20. None have "immerse" or "into the nature of" for this verse.

This, like Martin Luther's addition of [i]allein[/i] (alone) to Romans 3:28, is a case of altering the Scriptures to "prove" a particular interpretation -- one's own -- such as Luther's Sola Fide, or the Anabaptist doctrines of immersion only and Believer's Baptism.

Jay

[HS_Dad]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1151641' date='Dec 29 2006, 05:11 PM']
This is an excerpt from www.anabaptistchurch.org.
[/quote]
While I very much agree with you Katholikos that this is a mistranslation.....

It seems most unfortunate that there is so much wonderful, interesting, and insightful information we
can gain about Hutterites and from Hutterites (one particular group of which posted this web page) and yet all you can do is find one point to criticize.

It doesn't seem gracious to our separated brethren. Nor does it seem wise as far as our own edification goes.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='HS_Dad' post='1152201' date='Dec 30 2006, 01:43 PM']
While I very much agree with you Katholikos that this is a mistranslation.....

It seems most unfortunate that there is so much wonderful, interesting, and insightful information we
can gain about Hutterites and from Hutterites (one particular group of which posted this web page) and yet all you can do is find one point to criticize.

It doesn't seem gracious to our separated brethren. Nor does it seem wise as far as our own edification goes.
[/quote]

I can find more than one point to criticize. From this same Anabaptist webpage (emphasis added):

[b]Pope Leo X [1513-1521] played no small part in provoking this confrontation. [u]He gained secret information about the emperor and all the kings and princes through their confessors. [/u]

. . . Zwingli began to teach and write against the [u]loathsome evil of Babylon, the shameless harlot[/u].".[/b] [i]This, of course, is a reference to the Catholic Church. [/i]

I'm sorry that I don't have the same good memories of my Protestant past that you seem to have. I was taught in Sunday School and from the pulpit that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, the Pope was the anti-Christ, that Catholics were not Christians and were doomed to hell. And the teaching hasn't changed. I grew up Southern Baptist, an eventual outgrowth of the Anabaptists. This and more misinformation created a prejudice that kept me out of the Catholic Church for many years, wandering in the black pit of agnosticism and atheism.

Jay

--------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[HS_Dad]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1152263' date='Dec 30 2006, 02:31 PM']
I'm sorry that I don't have the same good memories of my Protestant past that you seem to have. I was taught [misinformation about Catholicism].... I grew up Southern Baptist, an eventual outgrowth of the Anabaptists. This and more misinformation created a prejudice that kept me out of the Catholic Church for many years, wandering in the black pit of agnosticism and atheism.
[/quote]

Hmmm... Sorry to hear you had such bad experiences. My grandfather was a Southern Baptist minister.
While I do not have particularly fond memories of him, his wife and daughter (my grandmother and mom) were
wonderful living Christian witnesses. Also my experiences in the Evangelical culture have been wonderful. The SBC is the largest missionary sending group of Christians in the U.S. (perhaps the world?)....

Some of this experience gap between you and me is probably generational. After the cultural left took over our media and other institutions in the early '70's, I think most intra-Christian polemics between true believing Christians seems to have ceased. I am sorry you had such bad experiences and can not look upon separated brethren and see the many strengths they could bring to the church if only "Ut Unum Sint".

I also find it incredibly sad that any polemics you heard in church or S.S. against Catholicism could have caused you to wander in the pit of agnosticism and atheism. I believe you. I just find that hard to believe. By the way, as a believer in all truth being God's truth, not all anti-Catholic polemics lack merit.

It's interesting for me becoming Catholic, I have found the lack of an ability of Catholics to articulate a real personal belief to be a force pushing me towards agnosticism and\or atheism. I am fighting this very hard with prayer, mass attendance, meeting with priests, bible reading, etc. But, still the cleavage between priests and laity in the Catholic Church are hard to take coming from a culture that saw all believing Christians as one working to extend God's work in this world. Also, the huge switch from a culture of belief to a culture of ethnicity is hard as well.

[Akalyte]

Acts 20:30

[catholic_apologetics]

Akalyte, verse-slinging is a very Protestant thing to do and defeats the intent of throwing a verse onto the board (to which we have no idea of what you may mean).

"I have found the lack of an ability of Catholics to articulate a real personal belief"

This seems in some way to be a reaction to the Protestant reformation. Expressing "personal faith in Jesus" is a very Protestant thing to do, so it must not be the Catholic thing to do. I understand where you are coming from. I pray God answers your prayers.

Edited December 31, 2006 by catholic_apologetics

[KnightofChrist]

Acts 20:30 And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

[quote name='catholic_apologetics' post='1152942' date='Dec 31 2006, 02:25 PM']
Akalyte, verse-slinging is a very Protestant thing to do and defeats the intent of throwing a verse onto the board (to which we have no idea of what you may mean).
[/quote]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1152263' date='Dec 30 2006, 03:31 PM']
I'm sorry that I don't have the same good memories of my Protestant past that you seem to have. I[color="#FF0000"] was taught in Sunday School and from the pulpit that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, the Pope was the anti-Christ, that Catholics were not Christians and were doomed to hell. And the teaching hasn't changed.[/color]
[/quote]

[jswranch]

[quote name='catholic_apologetics' post='1152942' date='Dec 31 2006, 12:25 PM']
Expressing "personal faith in Jesus" is a very Protestant thing to do, so it must not be the Catholic thing to do.[/quote]

This sentence caught my eye. Why do you say this? For my apologetic work I follow the Pauline principal of being all things to all men...

To the Greek I am a Greek
To the Jew I am a Jew
To the Evangelical I talk about how Catholicism has greatly increased my 'personal faith in Jesus'
To the Traditional Reformed I talk philosophy and deep doctrines of the Catholic faith.
etc...

[Akalyte]

[quote name='catholic_apologetics' post='1152942' date='Dec 31 2006, 01:25 PM']
Akalyte, verse-slinging is a very Protestant thing to do and defeats the intent of throwing a verse onto the board (to which we have no idea of what you may mean).

"I have found the lack of an ability of Catholics to articulate a real personal belief"

This seems in some way to be a reaction to the Protestant reformation. Expressing "personal faith in Jesus" is a very Protestant thing to do, so it must not be the Catholic thing to do. I understand where you are coming from. I pray God answers your prayers.
[/quote]

The lord is very near to me and answers my prayers all the time. The verse points directly at those ravenous wolves who didnt spare the flock and drew disciples after themselves. I didnt post the full verse because would rather have people look it up.

[HS_Dad]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1152868' date='Dec 31 2006, 06:32 AM']
Acts 20:30
[/quote]

Is the point against the founders of the Hutterites in the early 1500's?
If so, hasn't John Paul II addressed much of this by admitting there was
fault on all sides in the 1500's? Or are Christians to argue forever about the
past and never get to the part about loving their brothers and seeking unity?

I certainly agree we don't want schism because Christ prayed for unity. "Ut Unum Sint"
after all....

Not sure what your point is...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Ut Unum Sint

"The Council states that the Church of Christ "subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him", and at the same time acknowledges that "many elements of sanctification and of truth can be found outside her visible structure. These elements, however, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism towards Catholic unity".11

"It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church".12

11. The Catholic Church thus affirms that during the two thousand years of her history she has been preserved in unity, with all the means with which God wishes to endow his Church, and this despite the often grave crises which have shaken her, the infidelity of some of her ministers, and the faults into which her members daily fall. The Catholic Church knows that, by virtue of the strength which comes to her from the Spirit, the weaknesses, mediocrity, sins and at times the betrayals of some of her children cannot destroy what God has bestowed on her as part of his plan of grace. Moreover, "the powers of death shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18). Even so, the Catholic Church does not forget that many among her members cause God's plan to be discernible only with difficulty. Speaking of the lack of unity among Christians, the Decree on Ecumenism does not ignore the fact that "people of both sides were to blame",13 and acknowledges that responsibility cannot be attributed only to the "other side". By God's grace, however, neither what belongs to the structure of the Church of Christ nor that communion which still exists with the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities has been destroyed.

Indeed, the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities, in a degree which varies from one to the other, constitute the objective basis of the communion, albeit imperfect, which exists between them and the Catholic Church.

To the extent that these elements are found in other Christian Communities, the one Church of Christ is effectively present in them. For this reason the Second Vatican Council speaks of a certain, though imperfect communion. The Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium stresses that the Catholic Church "recognizes that in many ways she is linked" 14 with these Communities by a true union in the Holy Spirit."

[Katholikos]

[quote name='HS_Dad' post='1152560' date='Dec 30 2006, 10:29 PM']
The SBC is the largest missionary sending group of Christians in the U.S. (perhaps the world?)....[/quote]I doubt it. Nine-tenths of all Baptists (there are about 250 kinds) lived in the U.S., at least in 1979. Only the Catholic Church is present in all the countries of the world.

[quote]Some of this experience gap between you and me is probably generational.[/quote]I don't think so. The anti-Catholic bull-oney I encounter from Protestants is quite current. I recently had a GARBC preacher tell me that Catholics aren't Christians. The Anabaptist website referring to the Catholic Church as "the loathsome evil of Babylon, the shameless harlot" and accusing a Pope of having used the Sacrament of Penance for skulduggery is only one of a jillion just like it -- and some are far worse.

[quote]I also find it incredibly sad that any polemics you heard in church or S.S. against Catholicism could have caused you to wander in the pit of agnosticism and atheism. I believe you. I just find that hard to believe.[/quote]Did I say I became an agnostic/atheist because of having been taught anti-Catholicism? I don't think so. I became an agnostic because of the illogical doctrine of Sola Scriptura upon which all Protestantism is based. I just didn't consider the True Church because of my prejudice against it, born of the anti-Catholicism I was taught and believed, until many years later.

You can read my conversion story here, if you wish: www.chnetwork.org. Click on Conversion Stories, then scroll down to my name: Jay Damien

[quote]It's interesting for me becoming Catholic, I have found the lack of an ability of Catholics to articulate a real personal belief to be a force pushing me towards agnosticism and\or atheism. I am fighting this very hard with prayer, mass attendance, meeting with priests, bible reading, etc. But, still the cleavage between priests and laity in the Catholic Church are hard to take coming from a culture that saw all believing Christians as one working to extend God's work in this world. Also, the huge switch from a culture of belief to a culture of ethnicity is hard as well.[/quote]Cleavage between priests and laity? Catholics unable to articulate a real personal belief? Culture of ethnicity? How did you see "all believing Christians working as one" when Protestantism is shattered into thousands of conflicting and competing denominations, all based on the same 66-book cut version of the Bible, all teaching one or more different doctrines, and all claiming to teach the absolute truth?

Thanks for writing. Jay

------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[HS_Dad]

Katholikos,

As for missions I would recomment Wikipedia for a nice overview of current and historical trends.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_(Christian)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_(Christian)[/url]

My former evangelical church had an annual missions conference for that one local church of about 1200-1500 attenders with about 10-20 international missionaries and 10-20 other people involved in parachurch ministries within the U.S. I personally have known Evangelicals who are ministering to Muslims in West Africa and Turkey. I am also good friends with people who are evangelizing in Eastern Europe.

My archdiocese has very few full time missionaries. Many of these are elderly nuns. I have never had a layman speak to me in the past three years about the importance of missions in their life or their desire to support missionaries. Nor has the archdiocese held any missions conferences re evangelization (or at least none that were communicated widely to
parishes).


> GARBC

If your experiences have been formed from interacting with GARBC people, that would make a lot of sense.
Catholics should know that GARBC is very unrepresentative of Protestants, Baptists, or Evangelicals. They are
very very sectarian and don't like others much at all. I can see your radicalization of feeling coming from
interacting with GARBC people.

-------

I have just now read your conversion story. There is much that is positive that I can relate to. But, I am so sad that your experience with Father Emmett McLoughlin appears to have left such a bitterness about your past. Can you see no good in your upbringing? I am so sad if it was so negative. Anyways, as a believer in truth, I would encourage you to not over generalize from your negative experiences to other ecclesial communions. I would encourage you to read Ut Unum Sint and imagine if your life had had a different path where you were in a Protestant denomination filled with love for Christ and true faith and grace and had historical issues against Catholicism which had calcified. Just as some Catholics have historical positions about the Reformation which have calcified.

"Cleavage between priests and laity?" Referring to some priests who do not believe the laity have a role in the church and some lay people who just shrug their shoulders at official Catholic belief and some priests who ignore their bishops... This is in the realm of practice not doctrine.

"Catholics unable to articulate a real personal belief?" Yes, many lay Catholics seem completely tongue-tied in a setting other than repeating the creed to speak about how Christ is impacting their daily life. Many others are committed believers for whom this is not true.

"How did you see "all believing Christians working as one.[?]..." " I have seen many instances of Christians coming together to work on common events... evangelization, missions, relief projects, etc. I would encourage you to spend a little time at [url="http://www.christianitytoday.com/"]http://www.christianitytoday.com/[/url] to see some of what is going on in Evangelicalism today... how to reach out to secular neighbors, missions work, application of Christianity to daily, life, outreaches to women victimized in the sex industry, etc., etc. Christ is using committed Christians in many ways! Praise God!

By the way, I am very happy you are my fellow Catholic!