The First Pope

[Anna]

The Catholic Church traces her history all the way back to St. Peter as the first pope.

Others here have claimed otherwise.

Circle stated that the first pope was Gregory, and that the Catholic Church began in 590 AD.

Larry (aka Truth) states that the first pope was Leo and that the Church began in 440 AD.

Catholics, Orthodox, and others all concede that Peter was the first pope.

Yet, both of our protestant brothers argue that this isn't so, even though they cannot agree with a first pope and a date in history when the Catholic Church began.

I'm opening this thread in the hopes that Circle and Larry will give their reasons for saying that the Church began when they say it did. Please provide your sources, gentlemen.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited January 19, 2004 by Anna

[Anna]

still waiting....

[God Conquers]

The occurence of the word Catholic in reference to the Church of the Western Empire appears much earlier than both of those dates. The earliest solid extra-biblical evidence that the Bishop of Rome (Pope) had authority over other bishoprics is in Pope St. Clement's letter to the Church in Corinth. He was Pope in 80 AD and is said by many Fathers (Tertullian and Jerome) to have been ordained by Peter himself. He was the fourth Pope, and by the form of his letter we can discern that Church hierarchy has evolved even at this early point. He is Pontiff of a Catholic Church.

[Anna]

Indeed, we can trace our history back to the Apostles themselves.

For instance:

In the existing documents that have come down to us, Ignatius is the first to use the word catholic in reference to the Church. On his way to Rome, under military escort to the Coliseum, where they would feed him to the lions for his faith, he wrote, "You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

Ignatius had been thriving in the living tradition of the vibrant Christian church in Antioch, receiving revelation directly from the apostles on what the Church was, how It was to function, grow and be governed.

History tells us that St. Peter was the Bishop of Antioch at this time; in fact, the Church Fathers claim that St. Peter himself ordained Ignatius. During this time Ignatius would have worshiped with Peter and Paul, lived with or near them, and was an understudy of these special apostles. Ignatius was known and revered throughout as an authentic witness to the tradition and practice of the apostles.

(from catholic-convert.com)

Now if James was shepherding the flock in Jerusalem, and Peter in Antioch, and other Apostles in other cities, doesn't that sound like an organized Church? Yet, they all held True to One and the same Teaching, a universal belief, a Catholic Faith.

Pax Christi. <><

ooops, and I might add that St. Ignatius was martyred around 117 AD

Edited January 20, 2004 by Anna

[Anna]

And then, there is Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna:

Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John just as St. John was a disciple of Jesus.

Like Ignatius, Polycarp also suffered the martyr's death in a coliseum.

In the Martyrdom of Polycarp, written at the time of Polycarp's death, we read, "The Church of God which sojourns in Smyrna, to the Church of God which sojourns in Philomelium, and to all the dioceses of the holy and Catholic Church in every place." "When Polycarp had finished his prayer, in which he remembered everyone with whom he had ever been acquainted . . . and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world." They then gave him up to wild beasts, fire and finally, the sword.

Polycarp was martyred in 156 AD

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

Circle stated that the first pope was Gregory, and that the Catholic Church began in 590 AD.

Larry (aka Truth) states that the first pope was Leo and that the Church began in 440 AD.

I'm opening this thread in the hopes that Circle and Larry will give their reasons for saying that the Church began when they say it did. Please provide your sources, gentlemen.

Still no answer...

Could that be because there is none?! ;)

[Circle_Master]

it could be that arguing against someone who sets up the argument from the perspective they are truth and everyone else is a moron is kindof pointless. change your attitude and i'll consider arguing. same with your other thread on the canon.

[Anna]

You've offered historical facts.

I've offered conflicting historical data.

One of us provided wrong information.

That is why you won't post.

Otherwise, just please site the sources and your reasoning for saying that Gregory was the first pope, and that the Catholic Church began in 590 AD. Where did you come up with it?

If my facts are incorrect, kindly prove them so, and I will graciously receive your correction.

If mine are correct, then you could simply graciously admit it.

I'm sure many of the posters here see through your childish little "I won't play with you unless you let me win" game...

May I have this dance?

Pax Christi. <><

[christopher]

You know I read in "Why I am a Catholic" by Gary Wills that back then the word Pope(Papa) meaning father was given(I think) to ALL of the bishops. It wasn't until some time later that it came to mean what it does now. Peter was still the first "Pope". St. Gregory did wonderful things for the church(Gregorian Chant?).

Dominus Vobiscum.

[Jake Huether]

You know I read in "Why I am a Catholic" by Gary Wills that back then the word Pope(Papa) meaning father was given(I think) to ALL of the bishops. It wasn't until some time later that it came to mean what it does now. Peter was still the first "Pope". St. Gregory did wonderful things for the church(Gregorian Chant?).

Dominus Vobiscum.

So, what does "Pope" mean now??

[Anna]

Papa still means Father, as does padre.

[God Conquers]

As does FATHER, which we call all priests.

[Jake Huether]

christopher,

So what was it that you thought Pope meant??

I'm curious.

[christopher]

I meant to put this on the thread, but I think I sent it personally.

What I meant that I READ IN THE BOOK was that back then "Pope" was a title given to not only Peter but all of the current bishops/apostles AT THE SAME TIME. It would be like calling the Bishop of Dallas "Pope" as well as every other Bishop in the world along with John Paul 2. It wasn't until later that it came to mean "Father of the Bishops" like it does now. Now do you get it? Pax Christi.