Fasting On Friday

[ironmonk]

St. Mark 2:20

But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast on that day.

<to Catholics, I am full aware of exactly the rules are, this is for those who claim that the Church is wrong in telling people to fast>

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[mulls]

but what exactly is that day?

unless there is some Greek stuff going on that i don't know about, it also says will fast, not must fast, right?

[ironmonk]

but what exactly is that day?

unless there is some Greek stuff going on that i don't know about, it also says will fast, not must fast, right?

The day that Christ went away was Friday.

The Authority of the Keys covers the "must".

"What you bind on earth is bound in Heaven, what you loose on earth is loosed in Heaven"

We know that the Church will be guided in all truth, according to Christ (John 14:16-18).

Looking at text verbatim in Greek is a red harring. The Apostles spoke Aramaic, and the Greek verbage is slightly different. So how do we know what the truth is since we really can't go by the bible alone? We have to look what has been taught without change for 2000 years.

What did the first Christians believe in regards to who had the Authority to teach the Word?

The first Christians listened to the Church. The Catholic Church.

Ignatius of Antioch (~50 AD - died at Rome between 98 and 117. )

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE SMYRAEANS

CHAPTER VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

St. Justin Martyr (100 AD- 165 AD)

On the Sole Government of God

CHAPTER 1

Object of the author

....For the men of former generations, who instituted private and public rites in honour of such as were more powerful, caused forgetfulness of the Catholic faith to take possession of their posterity; but I, as I have just stated, along with a God-loving mind, shall employ the speech of one who loves man, and set it before those who have intelligence, which all ought to have who are privileged to observe the administration of the universe, so that they should worship unchangeably Him who knows all things....

Origen (185-254 AD)

The Commentary on the Gospel of John - Book I

#23

....And in his Catholic Epistle John says that He is a Paraclete for our souls with the Father, as thus: "And if any one sin, we have a Paraclete with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous," ....

Book VI

#18

and as for the journey in prison with the Spirit we read in Peter in his Catholic Epistle, "Put to death," he says, "in the flesh, but quickened in the Spirit; in which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which at one time were disobedient, when the long-suffering of God once waited in the days of Noah while the ark was a preparing."

The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna, Concerning the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp

The Church of God which sojourns at Smyrna, to the Church of God sojourning in Philomelium, and to all the congregations of the Holy and Catholic Church in every place: Mercy, peace, and love from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

St. Augustine of Hippo (11/13/354 - 8/28/430 AD)

On Christian Doctrine

BOOK II.

CHAP. 8.--THE CANONICAL BOOKS.

Now, in regard to the canonical Scriptures, he must follow the judgment of the greater number of catholic churches; and among these, of course, a high place must be given to such as have been thought worthy to be the seat of an apostle and to receive epistles.

BOOK III

CHAP. 10.--HOW WE ARE TO DISCERN WHETHER A PHRASE IS FIGURATIVE

15.....Now Scripture asserts nothing but the catholic faith, in regard to things past, future, and present. It is a narrative of the past, a prophecy of the future, and a description of the present. But all these tend to nourish and strengthen charity, and to overcome and root out lust.

On the Trinity

BOOK I.

CHAPTER 4.--WHAT THE DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH IS CONCERNING THE TRINITY.

7..... "I have both glorified it,and will glorify it again;" but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith.

CHAPTER 13.--

31....."the righteous man shall not be afraid" if only he be kept in "the tabernacle," that is, in the true faith of the Catholic Church, from "the strife of tongues," that is, from the sophistries of heretics. But if there is any other explanation of the words of the Lord, where He says, "Why asketh thou me about good? there is none good, but One, that is, God;" provided only that the substance of the Father be not therefore believed to be of greater goodness than that of the Son, according to which He is the Word by whom all things were made; and if there is nothing in it abhorrent from sound doctrine; let us securely use it, and not one explanation only, but as many as we are able to find. For so much the more powerfully are the heretics proved wrong, the more outlets are open for avoiding their snares. But let us now start afresh, and address ourselves to the consideration of that which still remains.

CHAPTER 17.--

....standing on the solid foundation of faith, which the rock signifies, and beholding it from such a safe watch-tower, namely in the Catholic Church, of which it is said, "And upon this rock I will build my Church." For so much the more certainly we love that face of Christ, which we earnestly desire to see, as we recognize in His back parts how much first Christ loved us.

CHAP. 18.--ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS PERFECT TRUTH ESTABLISHED ON THE HARMONY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS.

33...... But were there in you that love of which we are speaking, or should it ever be in you as much as the greatness of the truth to be known requires, may God vouchsafe to show you that neither is there among the Manichaeans the Christian faith which leads to the summit of wisdom and truth, the attainment of which is the true happy life, nor is it anywhere but in the Catholic teaching. Is not this what the Apostle Paul appears to desire when he says, "For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant unto you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man: that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the height, and length, and breadth, and depth, and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God?" Could anything be more plainly expressed?

34. Wake up a little, I beseech you, and see the harmony of both Testaments, making it quite plain and certain what should be the manner of life in our conduct, and to what all things should be referred. To the love of God we are incited by the gospel, when it is said, "Ask, seek, knock;" by Paul, when he says, "That ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend;" by the prophet also, when he says that wisdom can easily be known by those who love it, seek for it, desire it, watch for it, think about it, care for it. The salvation of the mind and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures; and yet you choose rather to bark at these things than to obey them. I will tell you in one word what I think. Do you listen to the learned men of the Catholic Church with as peaceable a disposition, and with the same zeal, that I had when for nine years I attended on you: there will be no need of so long a time as that during which you made a fool of me. In a much, a very much, shorter time you will see the difference between truth and vanity.

CHAP. 30.--THE CHURCH APOSTROPHISED AS TEACHER OF ALL WISDOM. DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

62. But why say more on this? For who but sees that men who dare to speak thus against the Christian Scriptures, though they may not be what they are suspected of being, are at least no Christians? For to Christians this rule of life is given, that we should love the Lord Our God with all the heart, with all the soul, and with all the mind, and our neighbor as ourselves; for on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Rightly, then, Catholic Church, most true mother of Christians, dost thou not only teach that God alone, to find whom is the happiest life, must be worshipped in perfect purity and chastity, bringing in no creature as an object of adoration whom we should be required to serve; and from that incorrupt and inviolable eternity to which alone man should be made subject, in cleaving to which alone the rational soul escapes misery, excluding everything made, everything liable to change, everything under the power of time; without confounding what eternity, and truth, and peace itself keeps separate, or separating what a common majesty unites: but thou dost also contain love and charity to our neighbor in such a way, that for all kinds of diseases with which souls are for their sins afflicted, there is found with thee a medicine of prevailing efficacy.

66.....Only the Manichaeans, who make a boast of nothing, should be reminded that the abstinence and continence of the great saints of the Catholic Church has gone so far, that some think it should be checked and recalled within the limits of humanity,--so far above men, even in the judgment of those who disapprove, have their minds soared.

CHAP. 32.--PRAISE OF THE CLERGY.

69. There is not, however, such narrowness in the moral excellence of the Catholic Church as that I should limit my praise of it to the life of those here mentioned. For how many bishops have I known most excellent and holy men, how many, presbyters, how many deacons, and ministers of all kinds of the divine sacraments, whose virtue seems to me more admirable and more worthy of commendation on account of the greater difficulty of preserving it amidst the manifold varieties of men, and in this life of turmoil! For they preside over men needing cure as much as over those already cured. The vices of the crowd must be borne with in order that they may be cured, and the plague must be endured before it is subdued. To keep here the best way of life and a mind calm and peaceful is very hard. Here, in a word, we are among people who are learning to live. There they live.

76. My advice to you now is this: that you should at least desist from slandering the Catholic Church, by declaiming against the conduct of men whom the Church herself condemns, seeking daily to correct them as wicked children. Then, if any of them by good will and by the help of God are corrected, they regain by repentance what they had lost by sin. Those, again, who with wicked will persist in their old vices, or even add to them others still worse, are indeed allowed to remain in the field of the Lord, and to grow along with the good seed; but the time for separating the tares will come. Or if, from their having at least the Christian name, they are to be placed among the chaff rather than among thistles, there will also come One to purge the floor and to separate the chaff from the wheat, and to assign to each part (according to its desert) the due reward.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Circle_Master]

do you really see 'will fast' as a threat or command Ironmonk? I see it as a prophesy and a great one as well. Why? Not because people are forced, but because they want to. I'm not sure every Catholic Church member fasts because their heart longs for it - which would be hypocracy.

[ironmonk]

do you really see 'will fast' as a threat or command Ironmonk? I see it as a prophesy and a great one as well. Why? Not because people are forced, but because they want to. I'm not sure every Catholic Church member fasts because their heart longs for it - which would be hypocracy.

Circle,

You seem to be suffering from tunnel vision.

Refer to the Keys.

Come up with some quotes with references to back a rebuttal of the Keys prior to 400 AD or your point is mute.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[mulls]

but iron, you used the verse alone, as if that was enough to sustain your argument.

i'm a bit confused.....you said "this is for those who claim that the Church is wrong in telling people to fast"

but i still don't see the argument from that verse alone.

[ironmonk]

but iron, you used the verse alone, as if that was enough to sustain your argument.

i'm a bit confused.....you said "this is for those who claim that the Church is wrong in telling people to fast"

but i still don't see the argument from that verse alone.

I'm sorry I was not more clear in what I was trying to say - late night last night...new baby.

I have spoken with a handfull of anti-Catholics who try to use fasting as a point of attack against the Church, saying things like "fasting is against the bible".

The verse says that "they will fast on that day"... This is in total harmony of what happens in the Catholic Church.

I don't know of any other faith that teaches fasting on Fridays... that doesn't mean that I don't think there are.... just that this combined with everything else in bible and history I believe shows a harmony that is only the Catholic Church.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Jake Huether]

do you really see 'will fast' as a threat or command Ironmonk? I see it as a prophesy and a great one as well. Why? Not because people are forced, but because they want to. I'm not sure every Catholic Church member fasts because their heart longs for it - which would be hypocracy.

A prophesy indeed! But "will fast" only implies the end result. It doesn't speak about the "means". Iron was pointing out that many Protestants (and I've experienced it too) state that fasting is unbiblical, and or unnecessary. But Christ Himself said it WOULD happen, although He didn't say HOW it would happen.

You INTERPRET it to mean that "because they want to". But does the Bible specifically said the would fast because they want to!? No!

On the contrary. The reason the Pharisees were bickering is because they were REQUIRED to fast in the first place (not necessarily because they wanted too). So, projecting this requirement after the "bridegroom is gone"...

Private interpritation is such a bad thing. Circle, you should really really try not to interject your own beliefs of what you "think" the Bible is saying, when in fact the Bible itself is silent.

[mulls]

I'm sorry I was not more clear in what I was trying to say - late night last night...new baby.

I have spoken with a handfull of anti-Catholics who try to use fasting as a point of attack against the Church, saying things like "fasting is against the bible".

The verse says that "they will fast on that day"... This is in total harmony of what happens in the Catholic Church.

I don't know of any other faith that teaches fasting on Fridays... that doesn't mean that I don't think there are.... just that this combined with everything else in bible and history I believe shows a harmony that is only the Catholic Church.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

fasting obviously is not against the bible, prayer and fasting is encouraged.

but i still don't get the telling people to fast.

thinking out loud here...

i guess it would be like telling people to prayer. prayer is obviously vital to one's Christian walk, but if someone told you to do it, and you did it because you were following orders rather than on your own with a hearfelt attitude towards it, than what's it worth?

i don't see a problem in the encouragement of fasting, but rather in the commanding of it.

[Donna]

Good topic.

(Congratulations belated on your baby, Max!!!)

Mulls, I once heard it said this way, to paraphrase author Evelyn Waugh (I think it was him), speaking about the obligation binding on Catholics for Sunday/Holyday Mass:

When your church is your friend, she says, "Hey, come on down Sunday if you want to." And, because she's your friend, she's your equal. You are free to visit or not as you like.

When your church is your Mother, she says, "You will be here Sunday." Because she is not your equal, but your mother, she can rightly command you, and you are bound to honor her and obey.

[Donna]

And, I would add, we certainly all are absolutely bound to pray.

God wil not save us without our cooperation.

And so we must (and are able to) act therefore, to this end.

Which must include prayer.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Are mama's wrong for telling their kids to not eat sweets? The Church is our mama for crying out loud. All families have customs and disciplines, what's the big deal? It's cool to fast, and it's an essential Christian practice. In the early Church Christians always fasted in Fridays in honor of Christ's crucifixion and death. The Church established it as an official discipline because it is a basic part of living the Christian life. If you want to be a part of the Church you do what the Church does, and the Church has spelled it out in clear terms so people know what to do. If the Church didn't have structures and rules people would just do their own thing and the Church wouldn't have the beautiful unity of practice that it has. I couldn't imagine being a Christian without the Holy Mass and the Litugical year with it's feasts and memorials, it's times of feasting and times of fasting. It's amesome, it's like being in a big family with it's customs and practices that go all the way back to ancient times. It must be weird being a Protestant and not being so connected with the ancient history and traditions of the Church.

[Donna]

This is true, a huge family with its customs.

Great user name, Laudate.

Laudaute Dominum

In sanctuario ejus

[Laudate_Dominum]

it also says will fast, not must fast, right?

The fact that Jesus said "in that day they will fast" instead of "must fast" doesn't mean anything. It would be akward if he had said "must fast", and it is out of context to read anything into like what you imply. The point he is making is simply that they "will fast", that is all. If you look at the Church, it's fasting, period. You can't read into it and try to say it somehow goes against the Church having precepts for fasting. The Church is a community and communities have requirements and precepts, we do things communally not just on an individual basis when we feel like it.

I think Protestants just don't like the fact that Christ established His Church with authority. Sorry but that fact is all over Scripture. The Church is the body of Christ and He is the head. Headship implies an authoratative structure and he delegated authority to the shepherds of His Church as when He gave the apostles the power of binding and loosing, and when He gave Peter the keys, told him to feed his sheep, and when He proclaimed that all authority had been given to Him and then charged the apostles to make disciples of all nations, etc., etc..

And it is only natural that the Church of 2000 years would have traditions (I don't mean big "T" Traditions), the Church in the apostolic age already had it's customs and traditions and disciplines. St. Paul commends those who keep the traditions and shuns those who do not (1Cor 11, 2 Thess 2&3), as the Church faithfully does to this day.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Thanks Donna! :roll: