Teetotalers?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='scardella' post='1147627' date='Dec 22 2006, 08:50 PM']
I completely understand specific cases where someone is an alcoholic or they have a strong family history of it. I'm just surprised about some people who claim that consuming alcohol in any amount by anyone is sinful.

Where does the anti-alcohol culture come from? Does this have anything to do with protestant rejection of the Eucharist?
[/quote]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperance_movements"]Check out the wikipedia link here on temperance movements[/url]

Here's from the opening graphs:
[quote]The Temperance movement attempts to greatly reduce the amount of alcohol consumed or even prohibit its production and consumption entirely. In predominantly Muslim countries, temperance is part of Islam. In predominantly Christian countries, forms of Christianity influenced by Wesleyan views on sanctification have strongly supported it at times. More specifically, religious or moralistic beliefs have often been the catalyst for temperance, though secular advocates do exist. The Women's Christian Temperance Union is a prominent example of a religion-based temperance movement.

Most of the biggest supporters in all countries have been women, often as part of what some describe as feminism. The strong temperance movements of the early 20th century found most of their support in women who were opposed to the domestic violence associated with alcohol, and the large share of household income it would swallow, which was especially burdensome to the low-income working class.[/quote]

As far as I can remember from my history classes this is correct.

[SRMiller]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1147840' date='Dec 23 2006, 05:27 AM']
How do protestants who view alcohol as sinful reconcile the fact that Christ's first miracle was turning water into wine with thier view of alcohol?
[/quote]


Speaking as a former Southern Baptist, I can tell you how my church explained it. Bear in mind that this does not apply to all Protestants, or even all Baptists. My pastor was insistent that the Bible didn't really mean wine. When I continued to press it, he told me that wine was different then. I then got myself in trouble by pointing out the first vintage dates on alcohol from Egypt and other places (I'm an archaeologist).

[MrsFrozen]

::Sips her chianti:: Ohhhh, ummm... I don't know..

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='SRMiller' post='1147975' date='Dec 23 2006, 05:18 AM']
Speaking as a former Southern Baptist, I can tell you how my church explained it. Bear in mind that this does not apply to all Protestants, or even all Baptists. My pastor was insistent that the Bible didn't really mean wine. When I continued to press it, he told me that wine was different then. I then got myself in trouble by pointing out the first vintage dates on alcohol from Egypt and other places (I'm an archaeologist).
[/quote]
welcome to phatmass.

[ReinnieR]

[img]http://reinnier.com/images/beer.JPG[/img]

The front says, "Catholics, we drink beer."
The back says, "Catholics, picking up the slack of our protestant brethren since 1517."

Edited December 23, 2006 by ReinnieR

[Sojourner]

[quote name='SRMiller' post='1147975' date='Dec 23 2006, 03:18 AM']
Speaking as a former Southern Baptist, I can tell you how my church explained it. Bear in mind that this does not apply to all Protestants, or even all Baptists. My pastor was insistent that the Bible didn't really mean wine. When I continued to press it, he told me that wine was different then. I then got myself in trouble by pointing out the first vintage dates on alcohol from Egypt and other places (I'm an archaeologist).
[/quote]
yes that is that the Presbyterians I knew said as well. "It was different -- less potent" and "The water those days was not clean so they had to drink wine because it helped purify the water."

Never mind that alcohol is a diuretic ...

[SRMiller]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1148033' date='Dec 23 2006, 03:57 PM']
yes that is that the Presbyterians I knew said as well. "It was different -- less potent" and "The water those days was not clean so they had to drink wine because it helped purify the water."

Never mind that alcohol is a diuretic ...
[/quote]


Sounds about the same to me, as far as explanations go.

[scardella]

The funny thing is that I've been fairly universally told that the wine back then was STRONGER, not weaker. That was the initial reason they would mix water in with the wine (before consecration, obviously, because after, it's blood...).

[Sojourner]

Yeah, I always felt that was a dubious claim ... it just never made sense to me.

[Groo the Wanderer]

My in-laws are AofG. I remember once we went out for lunch at Chili's or something. The waiter asked if we wanted to start with any wine or margaritas. My mother in law answered "no thank you, we're Christians."

My wife doesn't drink anymore, but that's more from personal preference than from any religious aspect. I drink occasionally, but it is rare to have more than 1-2 (low tolerance) and I refuse to get drunk. That said, I lub the taste of wine, dark beers, and gin/tonic.

[Sojourner]

[url="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,945726,00.html"]Here's an interesting article from Time in 1977[/url]

Apparently Jimmy Carter ignited a bit of a firestorm over his use of wine:

[quote] Jimmy Carter has announced that he will serve nothing stronger than wine when he moves into the White House this week, and he drinks only an occasional Scotch. That temperate approach has proved a disappointment to out-and-out prohibitionists, since Carter is a devout member of the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Southern Baptists are among the driest of U.S. church groups.

But one celebrated Southern Baptist, Billy Graham, leaped to the new President's defense in a Miami Herald interview. As Graham reads his well-worn Bible, there is no doubt that "Jesus drank wine." After all, he miraculously turned six huge jars of water into wine at the wedding at Cana (John 2: 1-11). "That wasn't grape juice, as some of them try to claim," added Graham.

Not so, replied Fundamentalist Presbyterian Carl Mclntire. In his Christian Beacon, he offered an ingenious exegesis of the Cana account: "Jesus Christ never drank any fermented wine, neither did he ever make fermented wine. What Jesus did at the marriage of Cana was to make out of water the finest nonintoxicating wine that perhaps was ever made. The various combinations of the fruits of the vine can produce some delicious non-fermented drinks."

Facing a flurry of complaints, Graham then issued a 2,000-word statement further explaining his position on alcohol. The wine of biblical times was "very much weaker than modern drink," he said. "We have a free conscience before the Lord, [but] it is better for Christians to be teetotalers, except for medicinal purposes."[/quote]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='1148024' date='Dec 23 2006, 09:44 AM']
[img]http://reinnier.com/images/beer.JPG[/img]

The front says, "Catholics, we drink beer."
The back says, "Catholics, picking up the slack of our protestant brethren since 1517."
[/quote]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1148141' date='Dec 23 2006, 12:08 PM']
My in-laws are AofG. I remember once we went out for lunch at Chili's or something. The waiter asked if we wanted to start with any wine or margaritas. My mother in law answered "no thank you, we're Christians."
[/quote]

And you didn't order a margarita?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1148143' date='Dec 23 2006, 12:11 PM']
[url="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,945726,00.html"]Here's an interesting article from Time in 1977[/url]

Apparently Jimmy Carter ignited a bit of a firestorm over his use of wine:
[/quote]

Also, in 1 Timothy 5:3 Paul counsels to not drink water only, but also wine as good for the stomach. Now, back in Paul's time the water purification technology probably was not as good as today's, so my guess is that because the water contained pollutants, the alcohol in wine would kill those pollutants (at least I read that somewhere).

So, yes, I am in the camp that the wine in Jesus' day was indeed fermented.

[prose]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1147840' date='Dec 22 2006, 10:27 PM']
How do protestants who view alcohol as sinful reconcile the fact that Christ's first miracle was turning water into wine with thier view of alcohol?
[/quote]


[quote name='ReinnieR' post='1148024' date='Dec 23 2006, 08:44 AM']
[img]http://reinnier.com/images/beer.JPG[/img]

The front says, "Catholics, we drink beer."
The back says, "Catholics, picking up the slack of our protestant brethren since 1517."
[/quote]

Funniest thing I have ever seen!!

I totally made that my desktop!!