Non-catholics

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1147329' date='Dec 22 2006, 08:15 AM']
Akalyte,

This might be my second or third post. But, I've been reading here a lot for the past couple weeks. Thanks for the welcome to non-Catholics.
I was confirmed in the Catholic Church, but I'm not a believer. I already know that YOU PEOPLE are kind, but the welcome was still touching.

Peace,
Paddington

P.S. It is so strange that there are 2 (I hope not more) phatmassers who believe in executing heretics (such as me).
It makes me feel like when you walk thru the zoo and you know that the lions would kill you if they had the opportunity, but you just walk by unharmed.
[/quote]


Disclaimer: I do not support the execution of Heretics or anyone else.

I am not sure that is what these phatmassers mean to say. The execution of heretics has been part of Catholic tradition since the middle ages when Almost all of western Europe was exclusively Catholic. When heretics are given the chance to repent 2 times and choose not to then they may be executed (according to Aquinas). This is because the heretic is endangering the souls of the state, committing "spiritual murder" by misleading the people in the country. if this is the case and the heretic refuses to repent The Church then turns this person over to the state for punishment (usually execution). Now this method is only really applicable when a state is almost 100% Catholic with a Catholic government, and when the heretic poses a threat to the people's immortal souls. I do not think many would find it applicable in any society in the present day.

here is the the summa


[quote]Article 3. Whether heretics ought to be tolerated?

Objection 1. It seems that heretics ought to be tolerated. For the Apostle says (2 Timothy 2:24-25): "The servant of the Lord must not wrangle . . . with modesty admonishing them that resist the truth, if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth, and they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil." Now if heretics are not tolerated but put to death, they lose the opportunity of repentance. Therefore it seems contrary to the Apostle's command.

Objection 2. Further, whatever is necessary in the Church should be tolerated. Now heresies are necessary in the Church, since the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 11:19): "There must be . . . heresies, that they . . . who are reproved, may be manifest among you." Therefore it seems that heretics should be tolerated.

Objection 3. Further, the Master commanded his servants (Matthew 13:30) to suffer the cockle "to grow until the harvest," i.e. the end of the world, as a gloss explains it. Now holy men explain that the cockle denotes heretics. Therefore heretics should be tolerated.

On the contrary, The Apostle says (Titus 3:10-11): "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted."

I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."

Reply to Objection 1. This very modesty demands that the heretic should be admonished a first and second time: and if he be unwilling to retract, he must be reckoned as already "subverted," as we may gather from the words of the Apostle quoted above.

Reply to Objection 2. The profit that ensues from heresy is beside the intention of heretics, for it consists in the constancy of the faithful being put to the test, and "makes us shake off our sluggishness, and search the Scriptures more carefully," as Augustine states (De Gen. cont. Manich. i, 1). What they really intend is the corruption of the faith, which is to inflict very great harm indeed. Consequently we should consider what they directly intend, and expel them, rather than what is beside their intention, and so, tolerate them.

Reply to Objection 3. According to Decret. (xxiv, qu. iii, can. Notandum), "to be excommunicated is not to be uprooted." A man is excommunicated, as the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 5:5) that his "spirit may be saved in the day of Our Lord." Yet if heretics be altogether uprooted by death, this is not contrary to Our Lord's command, which is to be understood as referring to the case when the cockle cannot be plucked up without plucking up the wheat, as we explained above (10, 8, ad 1), when treating of unbelievers in general.[/quote]

[Paddington]

Deleted by Paddington himself.

Edited December 23, 2006 by Paddington

[Paddington]

EENS,

I guess you do support the executions in the past. Am I right?

- Paddington

[goldenchild17]

It wouldn't happen in a modern country that exists right now. With all people being allowed by your church to belong to any faith at all that they wish, then it would technically contradict this allowance if your church were to execute people who were of another faith.

In the past people, in a Catholic country, were not allowed to publicly display their non-catholic faith. Those that did were a danger to the Catholic faith and were executed to be rid of the danger. As Aquinas stated, if one was not open to entering the true fold and worse still was spreading their lies openly, then they need to be executed.

But it would be pointless to support it if the church one belongs to allows any faith at all.

[HS_Dad]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1149714' date='Dec 26 2006, 03:10 AM']
EENS,

I guess you do support the executions in the past. Am I right?

- Paddington
[/quote]

Paddington,

For what it is worth I am a fairly new convert to Catholicism and I consider EENS positively frightening as well.
Although I can understand Thomas Aquinas's motivations, I think he let Greek philosophical (scholastic) modes
of thought overrule the clear revelation of God in sacred scripture. I really can't imagine the Jesus of the New Testament ever having any sympathy with executing a person for leaving the Church. It's completely unfathomable as his teaching was so clearly against looking at faith as "us vs. them" (see the parables of the good Samaritan while realizing the Jewish
- Samaritan ethnic tension of the time, etc.). Anyways, welcome!

[Akalyte]

Acts 20:30

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1152867' date='Dec 31 2006, 07:30 AM']
Acts 20:30
[/quote]

Amen Akalyte

To all our non-Catholic friends. It is a pleasure to have you here. If the nuts get too much for you, you night try the handy ignore feature.

[HS_Dad]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1152867' date='Dec 31 2006, 06:30 AM']
Acts 20:30
[/quote]

I heartily second Akalyte on the importance of unity. (Although I am not sure his exact point.)

Always remember new-comers you need to read the original source documents, scripture, the catechism,
encyclicals like "Ut Unum Sint" to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches.



Welcome!

[she_who_is_not]

Keep praying.